For anyone starting a new project I would recommend looking at a product like the Tap Tempo kit from UK Electronic which is considerably cheaper, smaller and comes with all the parts you require in a single kit.
This is a daughterboard for the Taptation kit you can buy from Aron at diystompboxes.com here (which includes the Taptation and digital potentiometer ICs), and will allow you to add tap tempo capability to any PT2399 delay pedal. A datasheet for the Taptation chip can be downloaded from here, and notes about interfacing to the PT2399 can be downloaded from here.
You will need to remove the Delay/Time pot from your effect, and the daughterboard then connects to pin 6 of the PT2399 to control the delay times. Manual Time and Depth (modulation) controls are dealt with on the daughterboard and so switches are included for modulation, double time and delay scale, along with the tempo clock control (tap tempo using a momentary footswitch).
So get your Deep Blue Delay tapped up for ultimate TGP mojo points! :o)
Example of the tap tempo chip in action:
Video of Geiri's Deep Blue Delay with Tap Tempo:
Sweet mother of god. This will indeed keep me busy. You really are the man!
ReplyDeleteOkay now, I have to rehouse my DBDelay on a BB box and add this shit! So awesome!
ReplyDeleteSo the DBD board is fine as is (minus the delay/time pot) to work with this?
ReplyDeleteYes. The wire from daughterboard IC2 pin 5 & 6 just goes to pin 6 of the DBD's PT2399, so you don't need the delay time pot components of the DBD any more. That's the only connection it needs to make with the DBD board, other than sharing its 9V supply and ground.
ReplyDeleteDoes that include the 2k7 on the dbd? Keep it or get rid of it?
ReplyDeleteNo longer required
ReplyDeleteAh I see. This is really impressive man thanks again. I've learned so much from your layouts. This will be my third build. Started with the SHO then did the Klon. So excited to incorporate this with the deep blue.
ReplyDeleteOoh you did my Klon layout? I didn't know that was verified. :o)
DeleteUnfortunately I didn't use yours. I had already had the cuts and jumpers done for sabrotones layout. Literally the next day you put up your Klon lol or else I would have used yours.
DeleteHa, I thought I was going to have to verify that one myself! :o)
DeleteThe only thing thats a little weird with my Klon build is the clean boost technique with the gain all the way down doesn't really work. It just makes it muddy. But other than that it sounds really awesome.
DeleteFor the switches, obviously the on/off and tap should be stomps. Should the rest be toggles?
DeleteWell really, whichever is going to make it more useful for you. You could have all the single throw switches as stomps if it's going to be handy to be able to double the delay time or switch the modulation.
DeleteI do the command tonight of the system, really hop to rehouse my DBD soon, I think I'm would use a stomp for on/off, a stomp for the tap tempo and possibly one for double delay for crazy effect... I've a question, is it possible to add a switch that increase the delay time when we let the foot above? (like when you turn your the delay time pot). (like the footswitch on the space Echo?) Thanks
ReplyDeleteWell the delay time pot is putting a voltage on to pin 13 of the Taptation IC. You could in theory work out what voltage gave you the delay time you wanted and then put a fixed resistor in a switch with a feed from the regulator output, to give you that voltage instantaneously. I haven't used thes ICs before though so I've never done anything like that, so it would need a bit of experimenting once you have the hardware.
ReplyDeleteSo, since the DBD uses a 50k Time control, it won't be able to have the double delay time?
ReplyDeleteYou won't use the DBD time control any more. The DBD delay pot (and associated 2k7 resistor) would be omitted, and manual delay times are then set by the "Time" pot connected to this daughterboard.
Deleteexcuse my newb question, but with these mods, i wont be able to get a reverse delay by any chance would i? something like the danelectro back talk?
ReplyDeleteNo, reverse delay would be a lot more complicated
DeleteHi dude, I finally made the DBD with tap tempo, my report is that all sounds good but on the off position of the scale, we got a very big noise on the back. I also have a noise when the delay is on, (from ground) I think it's from the tap tempo board... any corrections possible?
ReplyDeleteI just think about the real use of a tap tempo on a DBD, because it's only 500ms so the tap tempo is really limited. But sounds good!!!
So you're only getting the noise when the tempo scale switch is switched off? I'll check over everything tonight.
DeleteYes only, plus à bip bip "wh the delay is on
ReplyDeleteI just finished building this with the deep blue delay. The tempo scale led and the tempo clock led are on whether the effect is switched on or not and they don't blink Just solid on. No response to tap switch or knobs. Any ideas?
ReplyDeletei got same problem like this... tripple check the trace circuit, everything is fine,but the tempo scale led and the tempo clock led are on whether the effect is switched on or not and they don't blink Just solid on,No response to tap switch or knobs.... somebody help me, any update layout
DeleteI did this layout purely based on the schematic and don't know much else about the Taptation IC and MCP41100, but I'll go through the thread at DIYSB and see what extra info I can get. There appears to have been a few people who have had problems so I'll check things over and see what I can come up with.
ReplyDeletei got same problem like this... tripple check the trace circuit, everything is fine,but the tempo scale led and the tempo clock led are on whether the effect is switched on or not and they don't blink Just solid on,No response to tap switch or knobs.... somebody help me, any update layout
DeleteNvm got it. missed a grounding point. As soon as I get a chance I'll test her out and let you know how she sounds!
ReplyDeleteJust tested it. Everything works well. Sounds good. The delay pot controls the for lack of a better word "tapeyness" of the sound as well as the intensity of the mods. The only thing is the pedal is very noisy. Lots of hiss/white noise when on. Other than that it's pretty damn cool! Nice work!
ReplyDeleteCool, I'll have a read up and see what options are available for dealing with the noise
DeleteSounds really good though man. Thanks for the work and dedication.
ReplyDeleteI'm not about to act like I know what I'm talking about by any means. Just noticed something on the datasheet for the taptation on page 4 under power supply (http://www.thetonegod.com/tech/datasheets/taptation.pdf) it talks about a .1uF capacitor on pins 1 and 14. I could be misunderstanding what its actually saying. Would that help with the noise? Sorry if I'm sounding like stupid, again, don't really know what i'm talking about but I know youre a busy man and just thought i'd help dig up any info i can for ya. Thanks again for all the amazing layouts brother.
ReplyDeleteI included that 100n mate. If you look at the 100n closest to the regulator, it connects from the 5V output up to the source of the BS170, which is connected to ground via the link under IC2 and the small link where the ground wire connects. I could have simply connected the cap directly the the ground pin of the regulator, but when I'm using poly caps I'd prefer a 5 row span that just a 1 row span. Although admittedly if you were using ceramic caps then connecting in that way may make more sense.
DeleteAh your right my bad. You think I just have a bad pt chip? The noise doesn't oscillate or anything. It's just a white noise when on. Louder when I'm using any dirt pedals. I don't think I'm missing a ground. It doesn't have that signature hum associated with it. And ive moved tr boards away from the 9v source and it's unaffected. The only other thing I read is that the taptation circuit should be as close to the pt as possible an my wire from the Dbd board to the daughter board is probably 2 or 3 inches. I don't know how extreme the "close" needs to be.
ReplyDeleteDid you socket the PT? It's certainly worth trying another because they're well known for being temperamental. Are you getting dead on 5V at the Taptation pin 1?
DeleteYou could also try to put a filter cap on the 9V line, go from the 9V rail up the right hand side of IC2, and connect the negative lead of the cap to IC2 pin 8. I think it may also be worth adding a higher value filter cap between the 5V rail and ground. Use a 47u or 100u cap, put the positive lead in the hole right between the regulator and BS170 next to the tempo scale 1 wire, then put the negative lead in the first available hole on the Depth 2 and 3 row, next to the 100n cap. Not exactly neat but it'll add an additional noise prevention method and so it doesn't have to be neat to test the results.
When you say pin 8 for ic2 are you considering that IC2 is flipped?
DeleteWhen Mark speaks of pins on chips, he means the pin no matter how it's oriented. Ah to be clear, there's only one pin that's pin 1, pin 2 and so forth, get it?
DeleteGeiri is right, when I talk about pin 8 I'm talking about the same pin no matter what the orientation. But I got it wrong in this one and you were right to query it. I meant pin 4 which is in the usual position you would expect pin 8 to be if it was orientated as is usual.
DeleteOops :o)
What value for the filter cap to pin 8? I'll try it tonight an let you know.
ReplyDelete47u or 100u, same as the 5V line. Whatever you have to hand really around those values. Filter caps don't have to be a precise value, plenty of companies use 47u, plenty of others use 100u and they'll both do the job, but the higher values tend to smooth more and reduce more ripple. Like with most things with this hobby, whether that additional smoothing makes an audible difference is in the ears of the beholder! :o)
ReplyDeleteHaha alright man thank you so much. I'll let you know my findings tomorrow!
ReplyDeleteGod that couldn't have been more difficult. Thank god my ecq's are coming soon. These greenie caps suck. And of course my socketed transistor and regulator is on a socket strip haha but I did put those caps on. Sound test in the morning :)
ReplyDeleteCool, where did you get your ECQ's from?
DeleteI ordered a pack from smallbearelec. They aren't all going to be Ecqs but at least they will be smaller than the greenies. Mammoth electronics also has ecq look alikes by the name of viikin. Only place I've seen that has them.
DeleteI get all mine from here:
Deletehttp://stores.ebay.co.uk/advancedelectronics/Capacitors-/_i.html?_fsub=8667023
He usually sells them in 60s and 120s but doesn't seem to have any listed at the moment. They're the cheapest I've found them and worth using if you ever want to stock up.
Sweet man I'll definitely check that out!
DeleteAs far as my findings with the pedal, the filter caps definitely helped. Still pretty noisy but comparable to some overdrives or compressors out there. Doesn't effect playability though so I'm probably just going to leave it alone for a while. Can't stop playing it. Loads of output on this thing with the volume mod. Had to turn that way down. Maybe when I get tired of playing it I'll open her back up and see if I screwed up anything. I do have 5v exact at pin 1 of the taptation so that's good. But opening it up and trying to get everything to fit without something shorting isn't fun (I told you I'd get it to fit in a 125B! :] ) sounds very good and alot of fun! Thanks again brother!
Well impressed you crammed it all in there! Send me a pic if you get chance
DeleteWill do. Gut shots are scary and probably frowned upon haha ill get some pictures of the pedal tho. The hand painting stuff isn't workin out for me but whatever it gets stepped on anyway haha
DeleteHere's the delay pics: http://instagr.am/p/KG798bA41e/
DeleteAnd here are the builds I've done from your layouts: http://instagr.am/p/KG7S54g41Q/
Great pics, thanks for that
DeleteWell thank you for the layouts. A Bearfoot honey bee and that looper pedal are on my bench as we speak.
DeleteI don't solve this problem of white noise/hiss too! I've noticed yesteraday during a set with my band, when I used my Ernie Ball Volume behind the delay (Delay on bypass position), on the 0 position of the volume pedal, no sound (that's my logic point), but when I up the pedal a big hiss in the sound and on the full position no hiss... If this shit can help you to determine the problem! (excuse me for my bad english).
ReplyDeleteReally? Check your switch's ground because when bypassed it should be silent. Mine is.
DeleteIn normal time, I wiring my switch like this:
Deletehttp://www.jimmybehanfx.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/P1040402_600.jpg
Do you think it's great?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletePerhaps a problem on common ground? That's shitty because the project is cool but this different noise cannot be acceptable in a big pedalboard.
ReplyDeleteDid you use the DBD without the tap tempo? I'm just wondering if it's this daughterboard that's introducing the noise, or at least making it worse.
DeleteYes, I always use this board during all my day since 2 months, and worked perfectly. It's after the add of the TT board.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the layout, I finished this one up last night. It works well with the DBD, but the scale led and the tempo led both produce an annoying pop. any thoughts?
ReplyDeleteHave a read of this:
Deletehttp://www.muzique.com/lab/led.htm
oh yea, I looked for that article a while back(after losing it) and never found it. worked like a charm, as does the delay. thanks!
ReplyDeletehi mark, can u please explain the following-
ReplyDelete1) the role of different switches
2) where does the tap tempo switch connect, and what type of switch to connect
3) what are the 123 numbering occurring twice on the right of pcb
4) what is the max delay time i will get with this and dbd
5) Can i increase the delay time?
Sorry for my noob questions.......pls help.
I can answer some of those (just built this yesterday) my build works perfect, I added it to an existing Rebote 2.5 delay.
ReplyDelete1 - The switches are as follows:
-- The tempo clock is what sets the tempo (use an SPST stomp switch)
-- The tempo scale switch sets the delay divider (1/4 note, dotted 8th, 8th)
-- The 1/2 time switch doubles the delay (1/2, dotted 1/4, 1/4)
-- The PWM speed switch either halves or doubles the speed of the modulation
2 - Tap tempo switch is the one marked tempo clock.
3 - You need to wire 1 to 1, 2 to 2, etc... like jumpers/links, but need to go over components so use some wire
4 - not sure, I used a Rebote delay and it seems to be 800ms + (but it gets really dirty at that long delay time)
5 - See above, gets really dirty, there are ways to "stack" PT2399 chips to get longer times without the noise, but I am unsure how to go about that.
- MikeT
Thanks a lot Michael
DeleteAny one have idea where to get the kits?
ReplyDeleteDIY stompbox is out of it!!
Plz HELP!
Sorry but i don't understand "IC1 is Taptation"
ReplyDeleteWhat kind of IC,is it ?
Here's the datasheet:
Deletehttp://www.thetonegod.com/tech/datasheets/taptation.pdf
I have no clue where to get one...
DIYstomboxes shop used to sell those. Can't find any other source through quick googling... Anyone?
+m
I have looking for this "taptation IC" on google and i have found nothing about it.
ReplyDeleteEverywhere I looked, it is written "tapatation".
^^
DeleteWhat is the reference of this Taptation IC,please ?
Delete
DeleteIt's this thing here:
http://diystompboxes.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=20&products_id=65
Ok,thanks !
DeleteI'm wondering if it's possible to build this as a seperate pedal that plugs into a Rebote. I'm thinking adding a plug socket to the rebote that breaks the pin6 connection to the delay pot when it's plugged in, then connects to the pin6 out from the taptation? I'll try it out once the Taptation arrives and report back
ReplyDeleteSo I built one of these today. I like it, it's great. Some people might like to have all these switches as options. Not me, I hate having too many options. The four knobs are enough for me. Hell, I don't think I'll even have the flashing LED for my pedal (just a maybe).
ReplyDeleteI built it into a 1590BB (see video above in the post) and it was pretty crammed with wires.
The only problem I have is that the flashing LEDs aren't 100% in time with the delay. They're a few milliseconds off and you can notice, but probably only if you try to. The tap works fine but takes a second or two to kind of kick in. If you're using a delay in a song with two different tempos and you have to change while playing, you won't like it but if you just set the tap before the part you play then it's fine.
The modulation is great but I'm going to use maybe a 10k or 5k pot next time because if you max it out, the modulation is just way too intense for my taste (useless to be honest). I feel that the modulation should be subtle. I'm definitely gonna make more of these! I only wish there was a way to make the DBD just a tiny bit cleaner with longer delay times.
Just leave out any switches that you aren't bothered about. And yes that's the limit of the PT2399, it would be nice if someone came out with one with longer delay options, especially as things have moved on quite a bit since the PT2399 was first released.
DeleteSo if I were to just not wire the switches at all, would it work?
DeleteYes, unconnected is one position of each switch
DeleteWhen i use the tap function, sometimes my delay stops working, and i gotta turn the pedal off and back on again. Could it be the pt2399 chip? Or does it have something to do with the taptation circuit?
ReplyDeleteLockup of the PT2399 is a common problem with the chip
DeleteIs there anyway to get around this problem?
DeleteYeah the only thing you can do is replace the chip until you find one that works.
DeleteCheers mate, i hope i find one that works in the stash that i have
DeleteThe problem was with the regulator, i was not getting higher than 5V at pin 1, i swapped out the regulator for the 1A version just to be safe. Now it works like a charm.
DeleteI'm thinking about adding this to my DBD.
ReplyDeleteNow if I want to use the tap LED as both pedal on/off indicator and also as the tempo indicator, how can I go about it? Is that even possible?
Actually I don't want any LED to be on when the pedal is off. I've noticed on Geiri's demo, the LEDs were blinking even in bypass. I guess I don't want that to be the case.
Any suggestions? Thanks!
It is possible, connect the tempo led negative to the 3pdt stomp switch, where your on/off led world normally go. As opposed to connecting it directly to ground.
DeleteYea that's what I wanted to know. Thanks alot! Now I just need to some extra time to build this thing!
DeleteIs there a way for this to used in a multiple output tap tempo switch? I just want the LED to blink in time.
ReplyDeleteIm have a problem. The delay tempo or the LEDs do not always follow the tempo of my physical tap. Could it be a problem with the taptation chip? Sometimes its faster, sometimes its on time.
ReplyDeletei could really use some help, my deep blue delay works fine, until i wioe in the daughterboard. the pedal still gives delay but the time does not change. The LEDs however to demonstrate time change. You can hear a faint hiss every time the led goes on but thats about it. any clue what ive done wrong?
ReplyDeleteYou might want to check for any shorts or unwanted bridge. I had this problem until I found out that my board was touching one of the pots or the switches.
DeleteMy DBD with Taptation works perfectly with a minor issue:
ReplyDeleteI could hear the clock tick (synced with delay time setting) when the pedal is off. But when the pedal is engaged, the tick becomes faint but it's still there.
The funny thing is, this tick disappears completely when any pedal in the chain is engaged. The tick also disappears when I put the DBD in the effects loop of my amp.
I've already cancelled out LED as a cause of this issue by testing it without any LED's.
Is this some sort of a ground loop issue?
Did you fix this issue? i have the same problem and Any help would be greatly appreciated! Also shielded the input and output, no difference
DeleteIt's bleed through from the oscillator which is cycling as long as power is applied to the IC and the noise is coming in through the ground connection which is why you can hear it when bypassed. This happens sometimes with LFOs whether they be IC or transistor based, so although one persons pedal may be silent, the potential is still there for others to have an issue. Shielding the input and output and keeping them apart can help otherwise it's trial and error I'm afraid. Larger filter caps may help but probably not.
DeleteI've been storing a taptation kit for a while and now I'm thinking of shooting for this one. I noticed that there's a time pot on this daughterboard so can you still set the delay time manually and override it with the tap tempo switch or am I not getting someting? That would be great 'cause one of the delay sound I'm using is just flat out 12 o'clock and it's probably easiest to leave the time pot at 12 and then just tap every other delay speed.
ReplyDeleteSo I'm thinking it would be great to make a dual DBD for playing different settings on stereo amps. Is this possible with the one taptation board? So for example, I'd love to have one side set to 1/4 notes and the other side set to 1/3's. Or maybe even some sort of ping pong delay, I don't know. I just think it'd be cool to have 2 different delays setup sharing the same tap tempo. Can it be done?
ReplyDeleteSo to add this to my DBD (which I built from your layout IVIark!) would I remove the 2K7 resistor and 100n completely? Or just the 2K7?
ReplyDeleteJust the 2K7
DeleteThanks!
ReplyDeleteAhh, finally got to do this. I did a whole brand new DBD for this, gonna sell my old one if I like using tap tempo with the band. Works 100%, no problems whatsoever. Still gotta try it out with high volumes though.
ReplyDeleteHi there, could someone post their voltages on the pins of the two Chips? Thank you in advance! I may have a problem with my chip.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHey guys a quick question?
ReplyDeletePt2399 pin 6 stands for? Im will to build this one. Thanks.
I finished the tap tempo board and Deep Blue Delay with tails.
ReplyDeleteInstead of adding LED for on/off indication, I made the tempo LED's are on/of with on/off foot switch. So that way when I don't use delay, ther is no flashing LEDs.
This was my most difficult build so far and most satisfying one.
I also followed couple modification points of deep blue delay and this made the wonder. Even with longer delay, I hear less noise and more analog type sound.
http://weplaymusic.co.kr/186
Looks awesome, nice job!
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI've built a few DBD's, and added the taptation to one with decent results, but what other options are out there for tap tempo on a pt2399?
ReplyDeleteI've found some scattered older info, but the only other kit I could really find is the one at uk-electronic.de, which is currently out of stock (not sure if it's just a temporary out of stock, or it's no longer carried..)
Does anyone have any links to anything else?
I'm going to build a few more dbd's with tap tempo, but since your note mentions cheaper/more complete and compact options, I'm curious to see what they are
Thank so much for all the info on this site by the way! It's such a great resource
Thanks for using my video for the demo, I feel very honored.
ReplyDeleteHi guys, I've been through this circuit with a fine tooth comb but unfortunately no joy to be had. The delay works very nicely (the one with tails) but I'm having no luck with the daughterboard. Checked everything over and over again. I'm not getting any LED's to light, the momentary stomp has no effect and the switches do nothing. Does anybody have any suggestions before I shell out for another Taptation chip? It's the only thing I can think that might be causing the problem. are they particularly fragile/susceptible to breaking down?
ReplyDeleteI originally removed this post but left it up to keep the published library complete even if there are preferable alternatives to some of the projects. With this one in all honesty I just wouldn't bother with the Taptation. I think they're very expensive for what they are, support is limited and you have to go to the trouble of building up something bespoke like this layout to use it. A PCB is a glaring omission considering the price you pay for the IC.
DeletePersonally for PT2399 tap tempo I'd now opt for something like this:
http://uk-electronic.de/onlineshop/product_info.php?products_id=3099
Cheaper, more compact, less messing about and comes in a complete kit with everything you need.
Thanks, I've just ordered one to try it out, but does it do the modulation thing?
ReplyDeleteJust took delivery of a new taptation chip. Installed and working perfectly. the first one was obviously a dud. Hell of a thing. Love it.
ReplyDeleteIs it possible to build the Taptation into it's own enclosure, that can be plugged into any PT2399 delay of one's choice?
ReplyDeleteIt wouldn't be as easy as that because you need to make a connection to the PT2399 in the delay and also remove the existing time pot so it doesn't interfere. It would always end up a bit of a Frankenstein's monster job.
DeleteHmm. I've succesfully built this a few times over with the Rebote schem and it always works but this time something's off. I built a Small Time according to Sabro's layout and it works like a charm but the tap just doesn't match what I'm stomping. It always results in a way too fast tempo that's completely off sync. I didn't wire the PWM speed/Double Time switches at all and wired a jumper between the D/S pins of the BS170 to avoid modulation. Also I'm using a 100k time pot even though the small time layout suggests using a 50k.
ReplyDeleteAny Idea's how to fix this or what's causing it? After I get over this one, I'm gonna add a infinite repeats switch and then it's done. A delay with trails/tap tempo/infinite switch. That'll be sweet..
Hey guys, can someone help? I built this with the DBD, and when active, there is no delay. There is sound, bypassed or activated and the volume knib works. The LEDs blink in time, whether i use the time knob, or stop, as well as changing with the switches, but no delay or PWM. Anyone know what could be wrong?
ReplyDeleteOk, so now I got it all working, except for one weird issue. When I crank the repeat and mix knobs, I get feedback and oscillations, which I would expect. What's weird is, when I cause this, and then stomp the pedal off, and then back on, the feedback is still happening. It only stops if I unplug the 9V power supply. Anyone got an ideas?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHi Ivlark , I bought a pair of tap tempo kit from Mek Electronics and does not work very well, the taped tempo and the time obtained do not match, disappointing, the taptation makes precise work ?
ReplyDeleteYeah, the kit isn't a very good one. My delay pot didn't do anything, so I can only tap delay times
DeleteHi will the elecdruid tap lfo chip work in this circuit?
ReplyDeleteNein.
DeleteIs the tap tempo a make (standard off, stomp=on) or brake SPST? I guess it is a make, but want to verify it.
ReplyDeleteGoodmorning everyone.
ReplyDeleteCongratulations for this project. Really interesting. This kit can be interfaced with the TT circuit of Madbean Cave Dweller?
http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.it/2014/04/madbean-cave-dweller.html
2016 SPAM thread award...
ReplyDeleteWell. Some we miss...
Delete+m
Gudday all.
ReplyDeleteFor those interested, I've used this kit (linked earlier):
http://uk-electronic.de/onlineshop/product_info.php?products_id=3099
With a Madbean Mimik board. Previously I hooked it up to a Small Time Delay on vero. It works great, but I have a very faint "dink, dink, dink" when the pedal isn't engaged. Probably doesn't help that it's in a multi with a chorus, phaser, and reverb along with the delay. Any ideas on how to minimize that leakage?