Tuesday, 10 July 2012

True Bypass Looper - 5 loops

A couple of people have mentioned loopers to me recently, so here the wiring layout I did for someone a couple of months ago which gave 5 loops and a tuner out.  It also included a switchable buffer before the first loop which he could switch into circuit at any time.

If you're not interested in the tuner out you could just take the input straight to the bottom right hand lug of the buffer switch.  If you're not interested in the buffer either you could just take the input straight to the bottom right hand lug of the first loop switch.  And although this is for 5 loops it's totally modular so you should be able to adapt it easily for fewer or more loops as is necessary.



96 comments:

  1. Well you know it's verified haha thanks again man.

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  2. Is the buffer circuit implied? I'm sure you don't mean to connect to JUST a stripborad.

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    Replies
    1. I guess this should be used with any of these:
      http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.fi/2012/02/cornish-buffer.html
      http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.fi/2011/04/klon-buffer.html
      http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.fi/2012/02/mad-professor-ruby-red-booster.html

      All three are absolutely great choices.
      +m

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    2. Note that on the Ruby Red i only mean the buffer board and no the boost itself...
      +m

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    3. Yes it's implied. Thetinnedman who the layout was for wasn't sure whether to use a Cornish or Klon buffer and the circuit was irrelevant for this anyway, the wiring will remain the same no matter what you use.

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  3. Replies
    1. To be honest even though I'm a rack user I don't have the time or inclination to get involved with MIDI implementation at the moment. I have made a MIDI looper in the past but it's something that I'm only ever likely to use once or a couple of times at most, and that makes it a lot of time you potentially have to invest in developing something you may never make use of again. When I did it in the past I bought a Highly Liquid board from here:

      http://store.highlyliquid.com/collections/midi-decoders/products/msa-t

      which can be used to drive relays which control the individual loops.

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  4. What size enclosure did you use for this configuration? Any suggestions on where to source one big enough for all 7 switches, LEDs, etc.? I've checked the usual suspects, none seem to have one that appears to be long enough. Loop-master has some really long ones, but I'm sure he gets them made specifically for his applications.

    Thanks,

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  5. Is there a possibility of drawing up other unusual configs? Such as a 2 button looper that engages A/B with one switch and A+B on the other?

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    1. You talking about something like the radial big shot ab/y?

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    2. More like this:

      http://www.loop-master.com/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=240

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    3. If I may I'd like to bump this question. I built myself a loop switcher for A/B/C, connecting 3 dirt pedals selecting 1 only, using two switches. Here's a diagram; http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss306/rogertje/Switch/layout2.jpg courtesy of Roger Arts at newtoneforum.nl For other purposes I'd like to use a switcher capable of A / B / A+B / bypass.

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    4. oops... I'll get another link to that particular diagram

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    5. Seems to have been clicked out on photobucket. I'll draw the layout from my actual switcher this weekend.
      Basically what it is, two 3DPT switches, the first switching between loop A and loop B, the second switching between the first switch and loop C. When loop C is engaged you can still switch between loop A and B, but neither will be engaged until loop C is disengaged. By engaged I mean audible. Excuse the crappy English.

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    6. Uploading a photographed version of Roger's diagram to my Photobucket now...

      the suspense...

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    7. http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj138/saintOlav/Guitars%20and%20stuff/ABC%20loop%20switch/20120914_184856.jpg

      OK, so obviously In/Uit are Send/Return. The scribbles are my notes on wire colors. Hope this helps.

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    8. btw; this is Roger's diagram which I just remembered I had printed to use as a guide when building this switch. Glad I didn't have to go pick up the actual box from our rehearsal studio, I'm running a five alarm fever.

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  6. Gavin, did you check mammoth electronics. I know they're selling looper enclosures now. I used an old enclosure from a midi controller of a Hughes and Kettner switchblade aml that was busted so idk why to get a raw enclosure. Check what Hammond has. I'm sure you can get one from mammoth and place the switches in a zig zag pattern to fit accordingly.

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  7. So does this not need any DC? Please excuse a newb...

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    Replies
    1. LEDs do need it. And this is intended to be used with a buffer circuit, which needs it too.
      +m

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  8. Replies
    1. Wherever it connects in the buffer you choose to use. If you're not using a buffer then the end of the red supply line.

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  9. I would love to build something similar to the OctaSwitch.. I can't, for the life of me, figure out how they switch between the channels. ie: channel 1 is engaged, and is bypassed when channel 2 is pressed. I love this page, and I think you're doing a great job. Thanks for your time, and knowledge.

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  10. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  11. I need a circuit to switch two head (A/B/A+B). Is it absolutely necessary the buffer? I dont want to switch pedals. Can I do this with the circuit above?
    I'll back you pardon for my ignorance and thanks for your great jobs
    Paolo

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    Replies
    1. This is probably the easiest way to achieve basic A/B/Y (or A/B/A+B) box:
      http://www.monkeyfx.co.uk/pictures/bestABY.jpg
      +m

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    2. thanks mirosol! Do you think it's unnecessary a buffer to drive two amps? I mean when A and B are together there is a decay of the signal without a buffer?

      thanks again

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    3. I have no experience in that.. You could just try it. ABY-box may come handy even if it's not enough for your specific need. To be sure, you could have two buffers - one at each output... I would build something like that if i needed similar setup.
      +m

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  12. thanks again mirosol, if I try somethings I'll post it

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  13. Hi! Thanks again for all your "terrawonderfic" work.
    Sorry, not good enough in electronics to understand everything about that looper 5.
    So looking at buffer :
    - black wire, negative, ok
    - red wire, +9v, ok
    - is green wire "in" ?
    - is blue wire "out" Thanks for your answer ;-) Tazidore

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  14. Yes the black negative wire connects to ground with all the other points of ground shown. Red is the +9V supply, green is the wire from the input socket, blue is the wire to the output socket, light green is the effect send for each loop, light blue is the effect return for each loop and yellow is the tuner output. The resistors are current limiting resistors for each LED, choose a value that suits you in terms of brightness, I use 2K2 a lot for this. And the buffer board is just representative, you should include your preferred buffer there.

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    Replies
    1. Hi Ivlark, I have build a simple ABY switcher, I want to put 2 Klon buffer before each out (A and B). it's right or it's enough one buffer at input in order to have no signal loss wen use in Y mode?
      Thanks in advance

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    2. A single buffer may be ok, but I'd probably err on the side of caution and use the split section of something like this just to make sure.

      http://thebin.free.fr/schematics/DualSplitterBlend+MiniMixer.gif

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    3. Too difficult for me to translate into layout. I'll try first with one klon buffer at imput...I'll tell you if it works
      thanks again!!

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  15. How easy would it be to make something like this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v6M22avoDo (available from here: https://www.wtfaccessories.com/vitoos-vlp8-pedal-switcher-effects-loop-controller.html)

    Or this: http://www.joyoaudio.com/en/product/show_185.html

    ...where there are 32 presets of different combinations, rather than the manual on/off on each channel.

    Thanks,

    Ian

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  16. Hi,

    A few questions on this:

    1) Is the tuner out on all of the time, or only when the tuner mute is pressed? - I can't quite tell from the switch wiring.

    2) The tuner mute will stop all signal to the buffer and other loops, right?

    3) Is anyone able to show me how I can wire a total bypass switch so the input is connected straight to the to the output?

    (i'd like the tuner out to still work - but am undecided on whether the buffer should still be inline - i'm thinking it should, as it can still be toggled with the buffer footswitch - so hitting bypass would bypass everything but leave the tuner and buffer in, hitting tuner mute will still mute, the buffer can still be turned on/off with it's switch, but the other pedals will not do anything (other than toggle the led's of course!) as they are no longer in the signal chain).

    4) Is the tuner mute just a DPDT? - is that because it's the end of the chain so there is no output to connect? - just input & led?

    Thanks!

    Ian

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    1. 1) Only when tuner/mute is pressed, a momentary stomp would be good here

      2) Yep, that's the mute bit. It grounds the signal to the buffer stomp switch.

      3) You'd need to take the wire that goes from the buffer to the Loop 1 stomp to a new main bypass stomp, then also take the wire from the Loop 5 stomp to the output socket to the new stomp. Then you can use conventional true bypass wiring to have Loop 1 to Loop 5 in or out of circuit.

      4) It's at the beginning of the chain. It's a DPDT because that's all you need to re-route the signal to the tuner and ground the connection to the loops, even with an LED included. True bypassing a circuit like the loop stomps are doing performs more actions and so needs the extra pole.

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    2. Thanks for that!

      Would there be a problem in having the tuner permanently connected, so it's always active? - and then having a mute latching pedal to kill the signal?

      Would I just wire the tuner out jack in parallel to the input jack, pin for pin?

      Presumably as that's before the buffer, it shouldn't affect the signal/tone?

      Is it a problem to leave the tuner mute engaged over a long period of time and the signal staying grounded?

      Thanks,

      Ian

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    3. I wouldn't because I think it will degrade the tone but you could try. Personally I'd do it after the buffer not before, but I have a natural aversion to just forking off in two different directions even after a buffer.

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    4. Oh and no it isn't a problem having the tuner selected for a long period of time, so you could use it for silencing your guitar between songs. You would obviously be better without the momentary switch though.

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    5. Ah, ok - I did wonder whether that would be a problem.

      Any idea how the Tuner Out jacks work on the volume pedals (eg: the Ernie Ball)? - do they just T-off and screw it, or is there a right way to do it?

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    6. No idea how they do it unless I see a scheme, but I've heard lots of people complain about the tuner out of volume pedals affecting the tone and so they may well just daisy chain off.

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    7. Ahh, ok - quite possibly then!

      Is there much loss in the 3PDT switching? - i.e if you are going through like 20-30 of them?

      Will one buffer at the beginning be enough for a big board with all that switching?

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    8. It should be because the signal after the buffer will be a very low impedance, but 30 is quite a lot so you may want to include on at the end or somewhere in the middle too. Bear in mind though that as soon as you turn a pedal on, it's own buffered output will again provide a low impedance output for the rest of the chain, so it may not be necessary.

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  17. Sorry, another question - i'm thinking of building a 24-way version of this - 2 rows of 12 switches.

    Is there any problem with cable length / noise / tone? - or will the buffer at the beginning eliminate that?

    Do I have to worry about the cable type, or can I use normal wire?

    Looking at:
    Single Core 1/06mm. Overall diameter is 1.2mm, rated at 1.8A, 1kV.
    Stranded Wire 7/0.2mm. 1.2mm, rated at 1.4A, 1kV.

    Any preference between single or stranded in terms of quality? - i'm thinking stranded will be easier to build/box as it flexes, but if single core will work better for sound, i'll use that.

    Thanks,

    Ian

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    Replies
    1. Pretty much any cable will do. They will all have a greater capacity than PCB or vero tracks and so will never be the weakest link in the chain.

      I tend to use 7/0.2 or 16/0.2 depending how tight the offboard wiring is. I even have some 24/0.2 and 32/0.2 but have only really used that for tag or turret builds which are quite nice to do with thicker cable.

      Stranded or single core are just as good as each other so it's down to personal preference. I prefer stranded because I think single core can look scruffy unless you really take your time, cut exactly to length and think carefully about where the wires are going to be routed in the box. Some people do all that really well, but it seems like too much trouble to me :o)

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  18. I have a question. I built a 5 loop true bypass looper based on this schematic. No tuner out, no buffer. All the loops work, but the output jack is not working. Any ideas why?

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  19. So what are all the parts for the schematic, I don't see any listed? Also, which buffer should i use to make this work the best for a general tone?

    And on a side note, What are you using to create these schematic drawings?

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    Replies
    1. The only parts are 3PDT switches, jack sockets, LED's & suitable resistors, power (eg: a 2.1mm dc socket) and wire.

      For the buffer, there is both a Klon one or a Cornish one elsewhere on the site. I've heard good things about both, so i'm planning to try both and see if there is any difference.

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  20. just finished this and my tuner out LED is backwards. The light is on when the signal is not sent to the tuner and the LED is off when the signal is sent to the tuner. any ideas

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    1. I tried wiring the switch the opposite of the way I had done it (not thinking this would help) and still no luck. I'm assuming this is a simple issue but it is slipping by me.

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    2. Yes I obviously did that without thinking about it too much. Disconnect the wire from the resistor which goes to the bottom right hand lug and solder it to the top right hand lug. That completes the LED circuit when Input and Tuner are connected and output grounded.

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  21. this works until I plug my guitar into the input. Then the tuner led stays lit constantly. It's brighter when the tuner is engaged but when it is disengaged the guitar is faint. I'm assuming a grounding issue. I ran the ground from the dc plug to one of the open holes on the cornish buffer. Other than that I followed the diagram.

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    1. Cut the link and see if it works properly. See if you notice any noise when in tuner mode

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    2. it works now but introduces a considerable amount of noise when in tuner mode

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    3. Yes that was the potential problem, it leave the output hanging so you get the noise like when you take your guitar lead out. I think to do it properly you need a 3PDT toggle if you want the LED there. I'll update the layout

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    4. Updated the layout, and added an extra link so it grounds the tuner out when not in use which will stop any noise from that side.

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    5. So effectively to mute, you put the tip of the input to ground - i.e short the tip and sleeve?

      That won't damage the amp?

      While you are there, is it possible to add an additional total bypass switch to the diagram?

      Thanks,

      Ian

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    6. verified now.

      ichilton, mark mentions how to wire in a total bypass a couple post up. Not sure if that helps you but there you go.

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  22. If I press the first loop switch and that the second one both loop remain active? when I active a switch exclude the previously activated?

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  23. HI, My doble loop has a noise when active, (POP)

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  24. From Paul Cochrane Tim: A 510K resistor is also soldered between the tip and shield of the Return socket to act as a pulldown resistor for the output of whatever is in the loop.

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  25. what is the orange buffer part? i'm trying to build my own looper but i dont really understand that part of the schematic. regards from Holland, jens

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    1. In this layout I included a switchable buffer in the first loop so that if you choose to you know where to include one which can help avoid tone loss due to a run of true bypass switches.

      The image is representative rather than showing the actual buffer circuit so you can use any buffer you like, such as:

      http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/cornish-buffer.html
      http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/klon-buffer.html

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  26. Is the Tuner Out, an always on that you can mute too? Can you do that if not setup that way currently?

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  27. Can I expand this to a 12 channel and what would the resistor rating be?

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    1. You can expand it to however many channels you want, it's totally modular. And the resistor rating is one that you think is suitable for the LEDs, so it totally depends how bright you want them to be. I usually like something from 2K to 3K3 approx

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  28. Do you use 3mm or 5mm LED's, or does it matter?

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    1. It's cosmetic, so whatever you prefer

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    2. In some other schematics they jump the lower left and lower center together, and run the left center to ground. What that be because there are running a master bypass switch?

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    3. It's essentially exactly the same thing because in the off state, the contact of the first pole makes the connection shown between the left middle and left bottom lug. But I did it like this for a reason. By including the link between left bottom and left centre it bypasses completely the left hand contact when in the bypass position and so all three lugs are permanently grounded. That avoids any potential pops that could be introduced when switching to ground. But it also avoids the send tip being grounded via two contacts which in low cost switches have the potential to be less than perfect. With the lug numbering like this:

      1---4---7
      2---5---8
      3---6---9

      The way I do it means the send tip is grounded by a single contact between lugs 5 and 6 when the switch is in the off position. Doing it the way you describe means the send tip is grounded via a contact between 5 and 6, then a link between 6 and 3, and then a contact between 3 and 2. There is no reason why all 3 lugs shouldn't be permanently grounded and anything that avoids unnecessary obstacles is always an advantage in my opinion.

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    4. If I wanted to eliminate the buffer and put in a master bypass, would wiring another true bypass switch in place of buffer work with wire from pole 2 on tuner out going to pole 5 on master, then pole 4 on tuner going to pole 9 on loop 1, the pole 9 on master going to tip of input jack, pole 7 on master going to pole 8 on last loop and pole 9 on master going to tip on output jack... Would this work?

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    5. Never mind, it works perfect

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  29. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  31. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    Replies
    1. Hey David, can we have a brief talk about this one you just built? Please let me know where I can find you. Thanks!

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  32. I make this looper with tuner out, but when I press the tuner swith does a POP. How can I remove this pop??

    thanks.

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  33. Where I can connect the tuner in???

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  34. I was wondering how to incorporate a tap tempo port like on the timon klein loopper. I have built this and it works well but I want to put the tap tempo port on it. I really would appreciate any assistance.

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    Replies
    1. What is the tap tempo for? Strymon?

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    2. That's a real good request. I guess a separate spst and a regular jack would make the work, don't you think?

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  35. Any pictures of the ones you guys built? Just to have the schematics as a reference. Thanks!

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  36. Is there a way to build this with common anode bi color LEDS instead of the regular LEDS so that off status would be one color on would be the other in an uncomplicated manner?

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  37. I don't plan to use the buffer or tuner out if that makes it any simpler

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    Replies
    1. If the switch is labelled like this...

      1-4-7
      2-5-8
      3-6-9

      Remove the ground link between lugs 2 and 3
      Add ground wire to Lug 2 and link to lug 6
      Cathode A to lug 1
      Cathode B to lug 3

      Everything else remains the same. 9V to CLR to Anode etc...

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  38. Hi! I am new here, is this diagram updated? I have read in the comments some "problems" with the tuner out, so, I would like to know if i can use this diagram with no problem! Thanks!! :)

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  39. can I use this type of loop switcher to rune certain effects through my amps FX loop?
    I have a sinking feeling that if I would disable the loop, the signal between the preamp and power amp would be cut, and I'd get no sound.

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  40. I used these schematics a while back and has worked great! I have since then added 4 stereo pedals and wondering if you have schematics for stereo looper? Thanks for your help!

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    Replies
    1. Stereo is more awkward because you would essentially need a 5PDT stomp to switch both sides simultaneously. Personally if I wanted to switch stereo effects I'd just use a bank of DPDT relays. You don't need a pole for the LED because you can just take the LED feed from the coil.

      So you'd need 2 x DPDT relays per stereo effect, and use a push on/push off stomp to energise or break the supply to the coils, or if you want to do it properly use a single pole momentary stomp with a relay driver circuit of some description. Like this or similar:

      http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/soft-latch-relay-bypass-daughterboard.html

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