Tuesday, 2 February 2016

Death By Audio - Echo Dream 2







91 comments:

  1. Looks awesome, I have parts on order. Would a TL072 be a good alternative to the MC31172?

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    1. It appears to be, some people say the MC33172 is noisier too, I may try one of my leftover NE5532's when I get to it.

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  2. Dude I'm so glad someone built this, I was the one who requested it, and then found out I owed University another $550USD so my plans for building it got shot down for a little while. I'm so damned pumped to build this pedal. It basically creates in a single box what I go for a lot with my setup! Thanks Alex!!!

    -Brett

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  3. Awesome! I ogle it since long!

    But I have two noob-questions:
    1) Whats up with the 32nf cap on the left of the pt2399? I tried to find one but failed. Does this value even exist or can I put 33nf in it's place? Or is it maybe 3,2nf?!

    2) Can I put any Op-Amp in MC31172s place? Does a workalike exist? Or DO those alternatives named above work without any changing of other parts?

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    1. I've found it, sorry. That's really a 32n..

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    2. The schematic shows a 82n between pins 9 and 10 on the PT2399, though it's not an official schem. I also do not think a 32n is made.

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    4. this vero indeed shows 82n. its not 33n. most delays on this site use 100n at that position

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    5. I see, He's talking about the 32n yellow box type (in the layout) between rows 1 and 3, Yeah I will be using a 33n like Sonus indicated.

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    6. Thanks a lot for all the replies!
      I'll try it with a 33nf and a tl072, like in sonus build. Maybe one day I'll find a MC31172 and swap the tl072 out for testing, if my build works.

      I think I'll build it with the switchable 9v/18v charge pump. Just in case any ticking accrues.. and to see how the sound changes.

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    7. Here is a hint if you ever have a hard time reading component values on these layouts. Use the ZOOM function on your browser. These images scale up just fine with no distortion and you can see everything.

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    8. Thanks Paul, but the yellow cap I asked for shows indeed the 32nf. There was no problem on my side, only a little confusion which cap I asked for.
      I wasn't shure weather there was a 32nf cap in existence because I couldn't find one so I asked if it's replaceable.
      But thank you nonetheless!

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  5. Components values should be correct.
    The layout has already been verified by SonusFluxa in the Forum section (He also recorded an audio demo).
    33n caps should be fine..

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    2. I built mine using a 33nf cap and a tl072, in case anyone was curious.

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    3. Hey Sonus, does your build have any ticking noises with the Fuzz up? I read from the original schematic poster that his had wicked Ticking and he ended up building a charge pump for the 2206 to kick it.. Just curious

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    4. I haven't noticed any ticking with my build.

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    5. Hey Sonus- I seem to remember reading you had a build report and audio clips and all that. would you mind linking it for me? Thanks!

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  6. I really like this, is sounds different enough to other delays I have that I might build it as well. Am I correct in thinking that adding tap tempo functionality would be a big project? What about an effects loop in the feedback circuit? Many thanks.

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    1. Would adding an effects loop in the circuit allow you to run effects that would be increased with each delay? For example, if an octave pedal was placed in the loop would the signal go up/down an octave with each delay? I would like to do this as well.

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    2. I am also trying to work out if the fuzz can be used only in the feedback loop, so the original signal is left untouched but the repeats become progressively fuzzier. Either way, I wasn't looking for a delay pedal but heard this and instantly decided to build it.

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  7. Also, the depth and feedback pots are marked C100K - does that mean reverse log? Thank you.

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    1. Yeah, A is Log, B is Linear, C is Reverse Log

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  8. I had someone asking me about building this a few weeks ago so I took apart my Echo Dream 2 to figure out the components. Upon looking up the modulation chip I found the suggested layout for the chip. In case anyone wants to change their design for a little more versatility:
    http://www.guideic.com/Resources/KeyImg/XR-2206CP.gif

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  9. Hello everyone,
    I couldn't seem to find XR2206P chip available from any of our local vendors here in Asia. any recommended substitute for the chip?

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    1. Tayda has a XR2206CP:
      http://www.taydaelectronics.com/xr-2206-xr2206cp-xr2206-monolithic-function-generator-ic.html
      I haven't figured out what those letter codes mean (is there any system behind it?) - can this one be used?

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    2. usually the suffix is just a designation by the company and nothing more. for instance the TL071 you can find TL071cn, TL071cp, etc. they're all the same IC.

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    3. OK, the only difference between XR2206P and XR2206CP I find in the datasheet is the operating temperature range - so I'd assume this one to work

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  11. I think I missed something... What is the value of the Q?

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    1. Do you mean the transistor?
      It's written on the layout.
      It's a 78L05 5V positive voltage regulator.

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  12. Would someone with a working one who can run it off 18V be so gracious as to give me their current draw? Mine is driving me nuts, the charge pump gives 18V with no load but as soon as I connect it to the circuit it drops to about 8V, so it's acting like the charge pump can't give the circuit enough current but I'm reading 16mA, which seems about right to me? Been through it with a fine toothcomb for shorts/opens/lifted grounds etc., nothing.

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    1. I should really learn not to try and do maths at 1am, and stick to Ockam's razor... actual current draw is about 50mA, so the circuit was indeed screaming for current. Rather than mess around trying to get 50mA out of a 555 charge pump I've frankensteined it so the 18V is only switched on to the 2206, also means I don't risk melting the 78l05.

      Out of interest, how has everyone else found the modulation? I've only been arsing around with 18V because the modulation was barely noticeable on 9V, which is unsurprising considering the 2206 datasheet says it needs 12V to run properly. Has everyone else found it runs OK on 9V or this another case of DBA's "screw it, close enough" design philosophy?

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  13. Does this fit into a 1590BB?

    Also, curious... did you all lay out the pots in the same general layout as the original? Does knob size make a difference in regard to ratio when you turn it?

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    1. Since this is on vero and not a PCB with board mounted pots you can put the pots and switches wherever you please really. The knob size doesn't make a difference because the pot whiper is connected to the pot, so there's no gears or anything to alter the ratio.

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    2. Thanks, Zach. Any particular layout for the knobs and switches that you think makes the most sense? Also, 1590BB?

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    3. unfortunately not really for this specifically. you can find generic drill templates online, but not build specific for this. if you look at the build gallery (show your pedal guts) in the open chat of the forum and you'll see a lot of builds from the guys in the community, myself included, and we either make our own like me, or use the generic ones and put the pots and switches in the best places.

      you can make it fit in a 1590bb, but you're going to have to lay things out so that things fit nicely without grounding out.

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  14. Another noob question.. what is a 2K7 or 6K8 resistor? Is that a typo (27k, 68k) or something different?

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    1. 2K7 means 2.7K (the letter replaces the decimal).

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  15. 2K7 is 2.7K

    6K8 is 6.8K

    It's just another way of writing things.

    This could fit in a 1590BB depending on how you lay out the hardware.

    Not trying to be rude here, but it sounds like you should try some simpler builds before you dive in with this one. Maybe something simple with a couple pots and a toggle switch so you can see how everything goes together

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    1. No rudeness taken!

      I do plan on doing two more builds before doing this one. I've already done one, wanted to get a few more under my belt before doing this. Just planning ahead.

      I just realized I have a 1590BBM, so I think that'll cut it. Thanks.

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  16. Like this one. Built with 33nf and TL072. I love the fuzz on this really quite doomy sounding which is just what i like. Thanks as always everyone.

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    1. Can you post some clips or pics of your build? I wanna see some proof of this one before jumping into this massive build. Too many failed DBA builds from this site

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  18. Anyone else hear the LFO as a kind of "thump?" It's not a ticking but it moves according to the rate speed.

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  19. Hi all.
    If I want to get 18v out of this but operate it on a 9v adapter I would have to put in a 7660s or similar daughter board correct? Also. Would it operate any better on 18v?

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    1. I can't tell you if it will operate better at 18V, but if you want 18V, but have/use a 9V then just use the voltage doubler board. You can even make it switchable between 9V & 18V, there's a couple layouts for it on the main site.

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  20. Hi all.
    If I want to get 18v out of this but operate it on a 9v adapter I would have to put in a 7660s or similar daughter board correct? Also. Would it operate any better on 18v?

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  21. i need help! :/ well i have to say that the pedal is perfect... but i have some problems that i cant solve :/ first of all i have some cracking noises every time i play with the fuzz and modulation pots... and when it starts it never goes away... for example if i leave the pedal for a day or so , the pedal will be playing really well and the fuzz will be perfect ... but if i start puting some depth and speed then things go wrong and weird noises come out... i think that all starts from the fuzz... i changed transistor but it keeps doing this .... and when this problem apears i wait until one day sudenly stops by its own and i dont know how this is happend :P im thinking about starting all this pedal from the start .. well i dont know much from pedals so i have no idea how they work...i just copy the layout to a pcb ... So please if anyone understands whats going on and can help me it would be perfect !

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  22. I also have some problems with Echo dream. I built two and both have some loud cracking noise at long time repeats. Also modulation control doesn't work - there's a little constant modulation, but pots depth/speed doesn't affect anything (while turning depth pot there is modulation, but when I stop turning it - modulation also stops). Checked everything three times, resoldered cables, checked another ICs and have no idea what's wrong. Except this echo sounds brilliant.

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    1. I have the same problem with the modulation, have you solved it yet?

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  23. Have you guys tried swapping in a PT2399 that you know to be good? There are a lot of noisy PT2399s out there and if you only swap in another PT2399 from the same batch chances are it won't help

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    1. just to add. PT2399s are very finicky and its always good to always have a few of them and socket them and try different ones. plenty of times you'll find that one PT2399 will be super noisy in one effect, but perfectly fine in another.

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  24. Yep, I got a few PT2399 and replacing it doesn't help. I also resoldered socket to be sure it isn't cold soldered.

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    1. Did you double check components values?
      Can you measure voltages?

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    2. Values are right. I'll check voltages when I have a while, thanks.

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    3. Well, 7805 seems to be dead as it has 8,6V at input and 8,5V at output. I'll buy a bunch new ones next week and see what happens.

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    4. my 7805 has 9,7V input and 5,6V output.... So i guess mine is dead too :P ! i hope this is the only problem for you too !

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    5. oh no! isn't it supposed to have 5volts output? :P

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    6. I also have a white noise problem ... when i max the delay and time pots... i replaced same pt2399 but nothing changed :/

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    8. Yep, I tried a bunch of PT2399 and also fixed the voltages and still there is noise on long delay time. Osciloscope shows it's PT's distortion, but replacing it doesn't help.

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    9. You could try adding a green LED (or any diode with a Vf 2.2ish volts) from PT pin 7 to ground (row above the cut on top of the regulator). A few guys had success in other PT builds with this.

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    10. Ciaran, I am currently assembling this board and am worried that I may have a ticking problem once everything is put together. As a precaution I want to put a socket in now, in case I need to try your LED suggestion. As the PT chip is inserted upside down, the area near the regulator is not really accessible to pin 7, I was thinking of putting one socket pin in the vacant hole next to pin 7 in the top right hand portion of the board and the other socket pin in the vacant hole immediately above the negative terminal of the 100uF electro. Does that sound right to you? Also, if I have 3mm red @1.96Vf and 5mm clear green @2.55Vf, which would be most suitable please?

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    11. Oops...missed it's orientation sorry. Yip...your solution will work. This won't help ticking though. Its a means of preventing, or limiting PT distortion. The pins are biased around 2.5V so you're looking for a diode with a Vf of close but not exceeding 2.5V.

      For anti ticking...take a look at the Madbean Wigl thread here. A few of us experimented with the LFO to reduce ticking. Made a huge difference for me. You'll have to plan well ahead adapting those ideas to this layout though so take care.

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    12. Great mate, thanks for that. Will check out the Wigl thread.
      Thanks also for your input here and elsewhere.

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  26. By a process of elimination, I presume that the pot labelled "Blend" in this layout corresponds to the pot labelled "Delay" on the original pedal. Would someone be able to confirm this please?
    As I'm a relative novice in these matters, could someone also please explain the actual task of this pot that warrants the title "Blend", and how that blending affects the sound in a way which warrants the title "Delay" in the original pedal?
    Hope that is expressed clearly enough. I know what I mean! :)

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  27. My fuzz knob is caring more like a volume knob....no sound when turned town, muffled and basey when turned up (no fuzz though). Any ideas on where to start checking?

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    1. I'd first check the cut on the Fuzz 1 row and the cut below and left. A stray piece of copper on any of these could connect Fuzz 1 row to ground...explaining your symptoms. Look closely at these cuts and run a knife along the gaps.

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  28. Thanks, the cuts look good and I checked with a continuity meter. Something I did notice, if I crank the fuzz and play hard, there is a slight splatty fuzz sound. Any other thoughts on what to check. As a sidenote, the modulation and delay both seem to be working fine (except for some thumping..in certain settings)

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  29. Id like to hear some clips of someone who actually got this working. Sorry for the need of proof, but I have attempted way too many death by audio pedals off this page without success and I'm starting to lean towards conspiracy. This is way to big to jump into blind with so many people asking for help and no build reports. Id really appreciate it!

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    1. I have just built one and it works remarkably well. How can I post you pictures and audio?

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    2. soundcloud is pretty easy and quick... youtube? I dont need pics unless you wanna show off your sweet build? but id love to hear it! such a big complicated build, im scared to undertake it then have it sounding and acting a little different. Id REALLY appreciate it!

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    3. OK I will get a sound clip sorted.
      Bear with me

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    4. Thank you so much! I dont need it to be anything super fancy. An iphone audio or video recording would work fine! Do you like the circuit? any concerns? I have just had the worst luck with DBA vero's. The only one ive gotten working right is the Robot. Every single other DBA vero i've tried has been a miserable failure. I feel like they use weird spec'd transistors or something in their fuzz pedals. seems like noone can get them to sound like the originals

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    5. Its just been posted below that in order to get the modulation working you have to have 10v to the xr2206. does your modulation work? did you use 18v?

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  30. This circuit needs at least 10 volts to work properly, any lower and the xr2206 will not work so no modulation.
    It will not modulate with a 9 volt battery.

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    1. Might be a good idea to add a voltage doubler to get 18V then.

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    2. really now? are the people that say they have working circuits at 9v just full of it? i always feel like there's some sort of conspiracy with these DBA layouts. like someone from DBA is releasing the schematics just slightly off enough to make all of us cloners waste our time and find them uncloneable.

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    3. Bwahaha. I'm sure it works right at 9V, but maybe the modulation isnt as great as at a higher voltage. trying it at a higher voltage shouldn't hurt it and adding a voltage doubler is an easy thing to do.

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  31. It does say in the datasheet for the xr2206 that the operating range is 10V-26V

    Most power supplies put out about 9.6V, not sure if that would be close enough but if you're having issues it would be worth trying it in the spec'd operating range

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  32. Appreciate all the comments on the voltage requirements of the XR2206. It perplexes me that it bothers people so much! I will try to answer the observations.
    A voltage doubler will work fine.
    I can only talk from experience that this design will not modulate properly below 10 volts. I have not tried it at 9.6 or whatever, I just run it at 12 volts knowing that it will definitely work properly and not damage anything else.
    I have tested new "9 volt" batteries at 9.7 volts and had 9 volt power supplies running at 16 volts. For those reasons I always test new circuits with an old battery to limit the current and voltage if there is a dead short. Also it helps to highlight power issues with the circuit. So I would have initially tested it at around 7.5 volts, and immediately noticed no modulation. Remembered the XR2206, upped it to 12 and voila.
    As requested by Elf Hands Customs here is a demonstration video on youtube.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNg15jJ3Pfg
    I cannot go along with the conspiracy theory as I have built this layout and it works superbly. Just remember that many of the people who have built this successfully will be using power supplies that will be well over indicated or brand new batteries.
    I highly recommend that you turn your elf hands to building one and give up on the conspiracy theories!! Good luck.
    Finally I must say this is the most mental and amusing thing that I have ever built.

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  33. Hey people! Any updates pics etc of someone just build this pedal?
    I had enough of building boost, fuzz, overdrives I really think that I found my best so this pedal seams quite a challenge.
    Can somebody summary all the comments and efforts in one comment so that we can follow and decide to build it or not? Thankssssssss! Big hugs Gogo

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