Tuesday, 15 April 2014

Madbean Cave Dweller II Dub Edition

As requested, version 2 of the Cave Dweller with all noted mods included.
Info from Brian which can be found in the PDF linked in the version 1 thread

Cave Dweller II (“Dub Ed.”) expands upon the underlying design of CDI , but adds an additional PT2399 for roughly twice the delay time. It also combines the two feedback controls into one. An additional mod has been included if you wish to add a true Mix control to Cave Dweller II.

Cave Dweller II Controls

Time – This sets the delay time.
Dwell – This control is a combined version of the Dwell and Echo controls of CD1 (thanks, Alex!)

Notes

Cave Dweller II - Dub. Edition - is for those really cavernous delay needs. It utilizes the current mirror set-up of the “DM-5” delay project to achieve roughly twice the delay time of CD1. The max delay time should yield about 1 sec, although a mod has been included to artificially reduce this, if desired.

In this version, Dwell and Echo are combined into one. The control works slightly differently than CD1. At minimum, the repeats are filtered on the opposite end of the spectrum, meaning they are more “telephonic”. This setting sounds very similar to the Deep Blue Delay. At max, the repeats are dark and ambient similar to the CD1.

One caveat with the combined control is that there is minimal influence on the number of repeats produced by the effect. For those builders who wish to add an additional Mix control to limit the number of repeats, a simple mod has been included. Please see the illustration below on how to implement the Mix control mod.

Additionally, the dark repeats have been limited to non-oscillating by using a larger value for R12 . If you do implement the Mix mod, you can lower the value of this resistor from 750k to a value between 470k and 560k to re-introduce oscillation. This is not recommended when not using the Mix mod.

One other mod has been included with R20 . This resistor resides in parallel with the Time control and allows you to reduce the max delay time of effect. This mod was included for those who prefer a cleaner delay (max delay times with PT2399s tend to introduce some digital artifacts and noise). The value can be selected to taste, and a 200k is suggested. This results in roughly 20% less delay. A 150k resistor yields approximately 25% less delay. 






Working voltages as posted by ξεναγός νεκρόπολης:

volt.reg. q1 q2
i.9.22 e.0.05 e.0.06
g.0 b.0.62 b.0.62
o.5.01 c.2.43 c.2.44

pt2399 (both same)

1.5,01 16.2,44
2.2,43 15.2,44
3.0 14.2,44
4.0 13.2,44
5.2,88 12.2,44
6.2,43 11.2,44
7.0,77 10.2,44
8.0,89 9.2,44

53 comments:

  1. Oh yeah! This is awesome:P
    Definitely gonna try this one...
    Thanks man!

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  2. Yep, no idea what I'm going to do with 7 delay pedals, but I'm going to build the hell out of this one... (checks parts...) hell yeah. I love a good layout that doesn't involve parts you need to Epic Quest for :D

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  3. A different delay for every day of the week:D

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  4. Put them all in a chain and enjoy the sonic madness that ensues?

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  5. I've got one from 1776 effects that has a delay detune momentary switch.. I can only imagine sending that down the line to 6 other delays. It might immediately summon Tenacious D to challenge me to a Rock Off.

    I would lose.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Stick a scrambler in front for epic DOOOOOOOOM!

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    2. Detune Momentary switch... feature to add to next delay.

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  6. http://1776effects.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Multiplex-Build-Doc-1.7.pdf

    "Tape Speed: Holding down the SPST momentary footswitch slowly speeds up the delay speed. Releasing it slows the speed back down to your time setting. It’s highly interactive depending on how you have Delay 2 set."

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  7. Yeah I was looking at that. I might have to breadboard that LFO

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  8. hi iviark
    .,build this ,but only clean signal and sound like battery about to die.,my build wiring is ok after check,and i try with swap pt2399 from my magnus mdulus without succes.pls help me,.
    and thanks for your layout

    agung setiadi

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  9. hi iviark
    .,build this ,but only clean signal and sound like battery about to die.,my build wiring is ok after check,and i try with swap pt2399 from my magnus mdulus without succes.pls help me,.
    and thanks for your layout

    agung setiadi

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You need to post all the IC and transistor voltages to give us something to go off

      Delete
  10. yeaaah.,time 1 must be connect to bc550 (basis pin) .,and its work.but feedback coming like hell when mix pot at 9 oclock..

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Goddam it, wrong side of the 200K :o)
      Corrected that and I'll check over the rest

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  11. Ahaa i see ,maybe u so tired with many new layout mate.,hehe.,delay sounds great btw,.delay time so so long,but noise coming in the long delay.maybe i will add tone pot to decrease noise ,just like wampler faux analog dlay..thank you for all your layout ,best regard from indonesia

    agung setiadi & agung mahendra






    https://m.facebook.com/groups/162283290538621?_rdr

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. So is the noise only at longer delay settings? Do you think it can be verified?

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  12. yes,noise at longer delay setting only..and yes,its VERIFIED ..thanks ,u rock \m/

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  13. Nice delay, got it working the first try, thanks :)

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  14. Sorry newbie here. what does the blue dot "double link in single hole" means? Are they connected? Thank you so much.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It means there are two links in the hole, one going up and one going down

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    2. Thank you so much Sir! I'm so excited to build this one!

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  15. built it and all i get are self-oscillations. no signal is passing, and the oscillations are not what im playing. any ideas?

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  16. review on this one.

    i 've just build it. i get pretty much the same with mikejoyce. time works somehow as in DBD. mix oscillates even at 2% and dwell acts like balance or something.i can't find a better word to explain that....

    very dirty thing too. you can just play 2 notes and the oscillation will never let you play anything else. when turning all way back the mix pot, oscillation stops, but even from 2% (as i said) it becomes really really loud.
    i guess it's more like a noise thing than a delay. something like the echobender witch i've build some months ago. and much less guitar friendly...

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  17. hi there Mark!
    as i was looking on the schematic, i've found some referent values. for example all 10μ caps on the schem are 47μ on this layout. the 1,2k resistor after the diode is 1k here, and the 470k resistor is also a 750k on the schem.
    i don' t believe that these deferences would be any problem but i just wanted to ask if by choosing those values i could make my build act more like a playable effect, cause as i wrote in the previews post i've found this really strange.

    thanks man

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The 47u are probably my idea because I tend to opt for that value for filter caps, but I'm wondering if some of the other values changed in the final version of the scheme against the one I did this from. It's certainly worth a try swapping them, and I'll update the layout to suit.

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    2. i'll try them man.
      there is something more.the schem shows one more 10μf from pin1 of ic2 to ground witch you don't have in the layout. at the beginning i thought you omitted that cause you put a 47μf at pin1 of ic1.but i think i'll try and push an other 47μf somewhere there in ic2. would that be ok?

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    3. I didn't bother with that 10u because both pin 1's are connected via the link, so putting a 10u cap at both sides of the link will simply give you the equivalent of a 20u cap connected to both of them, and as I used a 47u anyway we were well covered.

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    4. i finally made it work as it should.
      i must buy a new tip for my iron...the small link down ic2 went bad and it caused all this trouble...now everything's working. i feel so stupid again...
      i didn't have any cold join since the first one on little devils chorus project, and now, with an other pt2399 effect it's here again...sorry man..

      Delete
  18. working voltages

    volt.reg. q1 q2
    i.9.22 e.0.05 e.0.06
    g.0 b.0.62 b.0.62
    o.5.01 c.2.43 c.2.44

    pt2399 (both same)

    1.5,01 16.2,44
    2.2,43 15.2,44
    3.0 14.2,44
    4.0 13.2,44
    5.2,88 12.2,44
    6.2,43 11.2,44
    7.0,77 10.2,44
    8.0,89 9.2,44

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks for the last batch of working voltages, now added to all the posts

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    2. Why PT2399 have non zero voltage at 3 and 4 while they are connected to the ground?

      Delete
  19. the slow delay is caused by another effect or knob of the guitar? in the video of the previous dweller. not reach the resistance value of 620R, only 660R will influence anything?

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  20. A causa de que detesto el zumbido a tiempo largo, disminuido el valor significativamente de la resistencia 200k y se transformó en reverb! Algún inconveniente con esto? Help please

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  21. Hi, I'm struggling getting this build working so any help would be much appreciated thanks.

    I measured the voltages as follows:

    Pt2399
    1 4.98 16 2.49
    2 2.49 15 2.49
    3 0 14 2.49
    4 0 13 2.49
    5 2.99 12 2.49
    6 2.47 11 2.49
    7 1.15 10 2.49
    8 0.77 9 2.49

    Just about the same voltages on both chips.

    Voltage regulator :
    I 6.96
    G 0
    O 4.98

    Q1
    E 0
    O 0
    C 100mV

    Q2
    E 0
    O 0
    C 74mV

    I measured the voltage of the battery im using to test at 8.7v

    Any help would be greatly appreciated thanks.

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  22. the voltage on base and collector of your transistors is way too low i believe.
    you could check the 200k resistor that supplies them from the regulator.
    the pt2399 looks very good to me.
    you don't get any sound out of it?

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  23. Thanks for the reply, I measured the resistor at 32kohm, took it out and put 2 x 100k ohm resistors in series ( measured before I put them in) they measured 32 kohm again when on the board? Made no noise this morning, yesterday I had very low output volume, re flowed all the solder and now nothing. Ive checked that ive got continuity where I should have and cant see any shorts. Cheers.

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  24. Just figured the lower measured resistance on the 200k resistor is due to it being connected to the time pot right? That would explain why ive seen different readings when I've measured at different times. Still not sure why the tranistor voltages are so low.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Hi,

    Seasons greetings!

    I'm on my second attempt at this one and am still running into difficulties and was wondering if someone could have a look at my readings?

    It seems like pins 7 and 8 are oscillating on both chips, and both have a higher voltage than the posted working value.

    At the output, I'm getting the clean guitar sound along with a weird repeating artefact noise that can be controlled by altering the pots. It sounds like the noise you would get when running your fingernail along the teeth of a comb!

    I get audio at IC1 pins 9, 12, 14, 15 and IC2 pins 15, 15 but none of this sounds close to a delayed or echoed sound.

    My first build had something similar at the output, except I was getting just the artefacts (and no clean sound!). Pin 5 was even higher in my first build.

    regulator
    I : 8.89
    G : 0
    O : 4.99

    Q1
    E : 0.11
    B : 0.66
    C : 2.48

    Q2
    E : 0.26
    B : 0.66
    C : 2.49

    IC1
    1: 4.99
    2: 2.48
    3: 0
    4: 0
    5: 4.5
    6: 2.48
    7: 1 - 2
    8: 1 - 2
    (9 - 16 are all ~2.47)

    IC2
    is the same except (5) is ~3.14.

    The values stay the same if I swap the chips over. I am using the Mix mod, and the optional 200k resistor, and a 1n4148 diode instead of the one specified (however I'm led to believe that it will be functionally identical in this case!).

    ehdee

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  26. Hi there, nice one! Definitely want to build one of those, but I was wondering which one is the R20? I want to solder a switch there, so you can choose between the 150k and.. whatever R20 is :)
    Thank you for all your great work. I love this blog!!!

    ReplyDelete
  27. Will the Taptation daughter board work with this one? If so, how does the wiring go?

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  28. Just finished this one up and it works great except that it's below unity gain. Any ideas on what the problem could be?

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  29. I would like to build a noiseless and natural sounding delay... should I build this one or the "Mad Professor Deep Blue Delay"
    Thankyou

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Both are PT2399 based, so "noiseless" is not a word I'd use to define 'em. There are quieter chips, so you'll have to get a bhunch from different providers. As a rule of thumb, the ic's purchased from a known seller (Banzai, Musikding, Small Bear, Retroamplis, and so on) will be safer than chinese $3 x10 pieces.

      On the other hand, the Cave Dweller is a "mid fi" delay, the signal is not heavily filtered and processed, so the sound is "raw" while the Deep Blue is a more complete effect, with tons of filtering and cleaning, so the signal gets more refined and clean.

      Regards

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    2. Any PT2399 will stay nice and noiseless with delay times under 400ms. The distinct digital distortion comes along audibly after ~550ms. But yeah. Deep Blue is decent and pretty pristine sounding circuit. The Rebote sounds pretty close...
      +m

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    3. Thanks a lot! I'm gonna go with the Deep Blue! :)

      Delete
  30. I just finished a unit, and soldered ins and outs, and pots, to try it before housing it. Only thing i got is clean signal, and dwell pot behaves sort of like volume. I did not use any switch, i ought to try it always on.
    Now, i have used some ( at least two ) approx values for resistors, but i thought that it would not made much difference...
    After five minutes or so, voltage regulator gave off bad smell and smoke :)

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  31. Could anybody tell me how to incorporate a LED that lights up with the repeats of the Delay?
    Thanks in advance and nice Delay, worked at first shot.

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  32. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  33. Some help please, I keep getting crazy feedback and oscillating voltage at pins 7 & 8 of both IC's.

    I measured the voltages as follows:

    Pt2399
    1 4.90 16 2.45
    2 2.44 15 2.45
    3 0 2.45
    4 0 13 2.45
    5 3.06 12 2.45
    6 2.43 11 2.45
    7 3.9~ (Variable) 10 2.45
    8 3.9~ (Variable) 9 2.45

    Just about the same voltages on both chips.

    Voltage regulator :
    I 8.22
    G 0
    O 4.89

    Q1
    E 0.24
    O 0
    C 2.42

    Q2
    E 0.24
    O 0
    C 2.43

    Thanks in advance.

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