Wednesday, 19 March 2014

Tronographic Rusty Box

After a request John K has said that he's happy to have his layouts posted on the main site so there will be a few of these showing up over the next few days.  All layouts posted are verified by John and others in many cases so you can definitely build with confidence.  Starting with the Tronographic Rusty Box:

Info from the manufacturer about the original:

The rusty box is a pre-amp effect pedal optimized for bass guitar. The controls on the rusty box include input gain, bass, middle and treble eq, master volume and a boost footswitch. The rusty box is true bypass and has a balanced output for use as a direct box.















64 comments:

  1. Thx for the layout.
    Can someone please give me a hint where to buy the C15K mid pot.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. just use a C25K and connect a 39K resistor between lugs 1 & 3. that's makes it a C15.23K pot.

      Delete
    2. Hmm. Not exactly. The value is 15.23K, but the taper will be affected. I bet that's usable and works well, but taper will be closer to linear than rev log.
      +m

      Delete
    3. IMO, its close enough. that's what I used in mine and it works just fine.

      Delete
    4. That's what i thought. It may offer even better feel with that custom taper.

      I must say i'm impressed on your work John. We need you to tackle the bigger circuits :)
      +m

      Delete
  2. isn't the 10k to ground attached on the switch redundant with what's already on the board?

    ReplyDelete
  3. ok, it seems that "redundant" isn't exactly what "redondant" means in French :D
    what I'm trying to say is that the 10k to ground and SW1 is already on the board, right?

    ReplyDelete
  4. I think that it is. I must've added the resistor to the switch before I added to the board and forgot to delete it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I do stuff like that all the time! :o)

      Delete
  5. OK, so far, I can't get it to work... high pitch whine only

    I've checked all links and cuts and started probing. Well,not too long, since I get nothing at pin 6 of the IC

    Power supply delivers +15V/-15V as expected, but as soon as i insert the IC in the socket, -15 "drops" at -9V-ish... I suspect a short somewhere, but really can't find it...

    could it be a "weak" or faulty 7660S in the supply?

    ReplyDelete
  6. Swapped the 7660S for 1044S... powered with battery and 2 different Power Supplies, same result (swapped the TL071 too, by the way)

    ReplyDelete
  7. just in case...

    the only thing i'm not too sure about is the Zeners on the voltage converter (15V, but don't know the reference) and on the converter, I've used 16V electrolytics... could it make a difference?

    here are the voltages...

    IC
    -8.8
    -3.8 (drops till it stabilizes at this value)
    0
    -10.05
    0
    -8.83
    15.4
    0

    Q1
    D: 0
    S: 0
    G: -8.77

    Q2
    C: 15.5
    B: -0.7
    E: -1.95

    Q3
    E: 0.65
    B: 0
    C: -3.68

    Q4
    E: 0.65
    B: 0.03
    C: -3.68

    Q5
    E: 0.65
    B: 0.03
    C: -3.68

    Q6
    E: 0.65
    B: 0.03
    C: -10.05

    Q7
    E: 0.65
    B: 0.03
    C: -10.05

    Q8
    E: 0.65
    B: 0.03
    C: -10.05

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. if it helps, here's the Traynor TS50B schematic which the Rusty Box is an exact clone of.


      http://johnkvintageguitars.homestead.com/Effects/Fuzz-ODs/RustyBox/traynor-bass-ts50b-amplifier-schematic.png

      Delete
    2. i'll try to out my RB tonight and measure the voltages so you'll have something to compare yours to.

      Delete
  8. that's very nice of you, john, thanks!

    I'm suspecting those 16V electros on the voltage converter, I've ordered some 50V ones

    ReplyDelete
  9. usually a 16V cap will handle a bit more than 16V, but I always use a minimum of 25V caps for the filters.

    ReplyDelete
  10. OK, I've isolated the Negative Supply Doubler and when I put a 820 ohm resistor between ground and -18V (just above 20mA), voltage drops at -14V...

    ReplyDelete
  11. ok, I give up! I'll do it again from scratch some time soon, I guess.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Did you search for the error again? Aside from some shorts my build behaves similar to yours. If I put in the IC the voltage drops to -11V. Also I get -Vcc on the ICs Pin 6 (Out) which imo is not supposed to happen...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. So, toyed around with some 9V batteries. With them connected (+/-9V) it works. Time to rework the power supply.

      Delete
  13. I just pulled out my build. my741 chip measures these voltages with a 9.16V power supply:
    pin:
    1: -15.21V
    2: -.012V
    3: -.012V
    4: -15.21V
    5: -15.21V
    6: +0.67V
    7: +15.31V
    8: 0V

    ReplyDelete
  14. IMPORTANT! I just noticed on mine that pin 5 of the 741 chip Isn't connected to ground! (it's not grounded on the schematic either!) so add a cut just to the right of it like this:

    http://johnkvintageguitars.homestead.com/Effects/Fuzz-ODs/RustyBox/0001-RustyBoxVEROVerified2.png

    hopefully IvIark will update the layout.

    this is probably the reason that people getting the wrong voltage (i.e. voltage dropping when the 741 is inserted into the socket). i'm very sorry about that!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. oh, and I meant TL071 and not a 741, but a 741 does work just as well in the circuit.

      Delete
    2. wow. that was fast! thanks!

      Delete
  15. mmmm i guess i will get back to this, then!

    ReplyDelete
  16. that + a faulty MPSA18 and it's done, at last! thanks for the update, john!
    2 things, though:
    LOUD squeal at 7kHz + harmonic(s) (using SCPA charge pumps, but it's not boxed yet, so I'm hoping for the best)
    Treble works reverse (double checked my wiring) but maybe it's intended as a cut?

    thanks again!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hmmm. mine doesn't have any squeal due the charge pumps at all. you might try jumpering the cut between pins 1 & 8 on the negative supply doubler to see if that helps but i'm pretty sure I have a cut there on mine with no squealing.

      i'll have to check the orientation of the treble pot again but it is definitely not a treble cut control and max treble is with it at fully clockwise.

      Delete
    2. I'm not sure it is "charge pump related", I hope that it will vanish once boxed.

      Delete
    3. I'm having similar issues, I reversed the wiring on the treble pot and it works as intended now (I think).

      I'm getting the same high pitched whine, I've tried several 7660's with no change, I tried jumping pins 1&8 and that just cut the whole thing off. What else can I try? It's quite irritating.

      Another issue I've had is I can't get the boost switch to work, nothing seems to happen when it is engaged.

      Delete
    4. yes, the treble pot's lugs 1 & 3 were backwards. I sent Mark the correct layout so i'm sure that he'll post it soon.

      my boost switch works perfect so you must have an error somewhere.
      and there's no high pitched whine in mine either. only the positive 7660S has pins 1&8 connected. the negative converter one doesn't.

      Delete
    5. Weird, I'll go over everything again with a fine tooth comb tonight, thanks for the quick reply John!

      Delete
    6. Got it working 100%. Turns out I was a complete idiot and was jumping pins 4 and 5 instead of 1 and 8. So I jumped the right pins this time and it worked like a charm.
      The boost problem was the transistor, I had to find replacement for the hard to find 5245, and the pinout is reversed. turned it 180 and everything now works perfect. Great pedal!

      Delete
    7. Glad to hear that you got it working Garth! the pinout on my 2N5245 is oriented as shown, but I just looked online and it seems that other manufacturers have it flipped 180 degrees.

      Delete
  17. I'm struggling to find a 2N5245 in the U.K.. Can anyone recommend an alternative please?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I believe that an SK170 would be a suitable replacement. just mind its different pinout.

      Delete
    2. Thanks very much - there's a few of those on ebay to investigate.

      Delete
    3. I've used both a 2n5245 and a BF256B with no difference. To my understanding, it's used as a switch

      Delete
  18. here's a pic of my build... at last!

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/118474006@N06/13996630420/

    ReplyDelete
  19. the 1k5 resistor is definitely one row too low, now...

    ReplyDelete
  20. and there's a link missing from the 27k resistor going to Q4 base

    ReplyDelete
  21. ok, i might stop now for tonight, but i also found a misplaced cut under the big jumper on the left side: 1uF and 220nF should be connected

    ReplyDelete
  22. the 6k8 resistor from Q2 emitter should go to -15V and not to ground. i WILL finish it tonight :D
    I thought that building another one would be a piece of cake :D

    ReplyDelete
  23. I've made so many updates over the last year that I lost track of which one was which. I went over it again today and this one is the best one yet:

    http://johnkvintageguitars.homestead.com/Effects/Fuzz-ODs/RustyBox/00001-RustyBoxVERO6-19-14.png

    hopefully Mark will update it soon.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Hi. Is the SW3 lug on the Input pad switch unused? Also, is the boost switch just an on-off SPST switch?

    ReplyDelete
  25. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Hooray, mine's working. Thanks for the help. I used a 2N5952 for the boost switch in the end. I also had the high pitched whining until I connected 1 and 8 on the negative supply doubler. It seems quite hissy when boosted - maybe to be expected or maybe charge pump related or maybe it needs a better enclosure.

    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=EEDCA8C5C0DD736F!1002&authkey=!AJ1S_Il9gOvbSf8&v=3&ithint=photo%2c.jpg

    ReplyDelete
  27. excellent! nice enclosure!

    what layout did you use? the one that is currently online?
    fyi, I've had good results powering the rusty box with the "bipolar voltage converter" you can find here:
    http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.fr/2014/01/bipolar-voltage-converter.html

    here's a second one I built:
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/118474006@N06/14277944548/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Cheers. Your Poulpy Box design looks great - and the others. Yes, I started building mine at the start of May using the design posted here - then i was awaiting delivery of some components (I think they got held up by the coup in Thailand.) I'm not sure if the layout changed in the interim. I reckon I'll try that "bipolar voltage converter" and see if it improves things. It'll save space as it's crowded in there; especially with a 9v battery

      Delete
  28. Hi,

    Thanks for the layout!

    Here's a photo of one that I put together over the past couple of months:
    http://imgur.com/gm1o4E4

    e

    ReplyDelete
  29. Could anyone clarify the grounding? Are all grounds joined together to the chassis or is PSU separated? Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  30. I'm not understanding the power supply. Does this take a 9v, or 18v power supply?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Nevermind, I think I got it. 9v+ attaches to two separate boards. Sorry guys.

      Delete
  31. Can anyone recommend a substitute for the 2N5245 and MPS8598? Neither Mouser, Tayda, nor any of my local electronics shops has them in stock. I saw the earlier post about subbing an SK170 or BF256B, but I'm not having any luck finding them, either.
    With the zeners, will any 15V zener do, or do they have to be the NTE5024A (can't find them in stock, either)?
    Cheers, Pat

    ReplyDelete
  32. I got some advice over at DIY Stompboxes that any PNP general purpose transistor will do in place of the MPS8598, and any N-channel jfet will do for the 2N5245. I'm going to try with 2N3906 in place of the MPS8598 and I have some spare 2N5952 jfets from a phase 90 project, so I'll give one of them a shot.
    Next question, where does the balanced output connect to? I'm guessing that there needs to be some extra circuitry, given that there's only a TL071 in there at the moment.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Well, I'm going for it! Figured out everything, but when it came to grounding I got a little confused. At first I thought all grounding is common. Then I saw a Schematic John Kallas posted http://johnkvintageguitars.homestead.com/Effects/Fuzz-ODs/RustyBox/traynor-bass-ts50b-amplifier-schematic.png . 4 different grounds are marked and I got overwhelmed :) Can somebody please clear this out?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well, after a long research, I've dug up an older pic of John's build guts. http://johnkvintageguitars.homestead.com/Effects/Fuzz-ODs/RustyBox/03-RustyBoxComplete.jpg I hope he doesn't mind. Some eye-burning comparing and cable tracking made me decide that, yes, all ground is common.

      Delete
  34. It could be just me... but this layout omitted the balanced out, right?

    ReplyDelete
  35. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  36. I've built a perfectly working Box so I'll share my voltages for whoever needs them. These are using the Bipolar Voltage converter instead of the Rusty Supply. All settings zero.

    Input 9.4V

    --Converter--
    Ic LT1054

    1. 9.0
    2. 4.4
    3. 0
    4.-4.4
    5.-8.6
    6. 5.4
    7. 5.1
    8. 9.0
    +17.3
    Outputs{
    -16.8

    --Rusty Box--
    Ic Tl071

    1.-16.7
    2. 0
    3. 0
    4.-17.8
    5.-16.7
    6. 0
    7. 17.4
    8. 0

    Q1 - BF256B

    D. 0
    S. 0
    G.-15.9

    Q2 - MPSA18

    C. 18.1
    B. -1.7
    E. -3.7

    Q3
    C. -7.4
    B. 0
    E. 0.6

    Q4
    C.-5.9
    B. 0
    E. 0.6

    Q5
    C.-17.6
    B. 0
    E. 0.6

    Q6
    C.-17.6
    B. 0
    E. 0.6

    Q7
    C.-7.1
    B. 0
    E. 0.6

    Q8
    C.-17.6
    B. 0
    E. 0.6

    ReplyDelete
  37. Hey! If you want to make things a little simpler, just omit the JFET and the 100k and 47k resistor associated with it and simply connect your favorite spst switch to where the drain and source would be connected. I assume the reason why Yorkville used the JFET in the TS-50b amp - of which the rusty box is based on - int the first place is that they incorporated a footswitch jack as well as the front panel boost switch, and that they wanted to avoid signal currents to flow in the footswitch cable which would eventualy present some unintended capacitance to the signal chain as well as increase the risk of picking up extra hum and noise ;) The function of the JFET is just as a switch and has nothing to do with the timbre of the circuit - no mojo here!

    ReplyDelete