Friday, 4 November 2011

DAM Red Rooster vero layout

For fx40b, one of the sites senior testers! :o)
This one is confirmed, enjoy



91 comments:

  1. Cheers Mark! You are a legend! :D

    Can't wait to give this a go - got some eros to try too so it will be my first build with posh caps :)

    Cheers man, really looking forward to this one!

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  2. First off - amazing site ! Thank you for sharing your work.

    Second - I'm assuming the trimpot is for biasing the transistor - any guidance as to what we're looking for ?

    Thanks!

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  3. Thanks for you comments. Yes this is essentially a Rangemaster which used a 3k9 resistor in that position. This is a great read for getting the best out of this circuit in terms of transistor gain and voltages:

    www.geofex.com/article_folders/rangemaster/atboost.pdf

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  4. I've been wanting this layout for a long time now... THANK YOU!

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  6. 6.66 volts is what D*A*M told me the collector reading should be when I emailed him (for trim pot adjustments), fyi.

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    1. The number of the Beast... David also starts his ebay auctions at £66.66 or something..

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  8. Did some digging and it's been suggested that maybe the 10k pot for Range should be a larger value? 100k is the suggested value. Not to be disrespectful but perhaps the author accidentally left a zero out by mistake?

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  9. It's no problem, it's good to share thoughts and ideas which is how things can be improved. Having said that I don't think the value is wrong. This is basically a Rangemaster which used a 10K log pot as per this schematic:

    http://fuzzcentral.ssguitar.com/rangemaster/rangemasterschematic.gif

    In terms of improvements this is an excellent read by RG and gives a lot of info about what does what in the circuit:

    http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/Rangemaster/atboost.pdf

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  10. You're right - the original Rangemaster used a 10K log pot. That was the "boost" knob. The original Rangemaster only had one knob. The DAM Red Rooster introduces this extra/2nd knob, the Range knob, which is somewhat of a tone control basically. The 10K value shown in your layout is not correct. It should be a 100K linear taper, not a 10k linear taper. Trust me.

    I just made the adjustment to my build and personally confirmed it. No disrespect meant, but please update the layout. Try for yourself - the 10K linear pot for the Range knob doesn't allow the knob to do much at all. The effect is very subtle. But with the 100K linear taper pot you can get the full range from treblebooster to very thick/full boost.

    Your layout is great and the pedal sounds amazing. But yeah, just that one oversight there. Thanks again for putting this up. Great stuff. Fun build and well worth it now.

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  11. Apologies, that'll teach me to read posts properly, I thought you were just talking about the Boost. You may well be right about the Range pot, I did this layout from a schematic posted on FSB which was unverified, and so I'm sure there could well be anomolies.

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  12. So should the schematic be updated for a 100k linear taper pot on the range control?

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  13. Well I guess techinically, officially, we'd need a DAM Red Rooster owner to confirm the value of the Range pot. But I built using this layout above, and I loved the sound of the pedal but wondered why the Range knob never got as trebly as a Rangemaster should and didn't seem to really do a whole lot. I did some research, talked to some folks who suggested I raise the value of the pot (which also made sense in my mind, since the 10K had too much "resolution" and not enough "sweep") and found a completely different site that knew the value of the range pot to be 100K. So that confirmed it enough for me. I swapped the 10K pot for a 100K and it was obvious that was the answer. It sounds 100 times better with 100K value for the Range pot. I encourage all who build this pedal to post their findings. I could be wrong - but I highly suspect the authentic DAM Red Rooster has more than 10K as the value for the Range pot. I think 100K sounds perfect and makes sense - someone could hav easily mis-typed "100" and typed "10" by mistake...

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  14. I built it with the 10k and 100k pot and it definitely works better with the 100k.

    The 10k doesn't cut the lows enough to be a treble booster as mentioned by Jason :)

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  15. oh and its a great little pedal too :)

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  16. Merry Christmas IvIark! :) Looking forward to seeing what new layouts you have for us in 2012!

    ..D*A*M Super Bee maybe?! :P

    Thanks for the excellent layouts and all the best for 2012 - hope its a fantastic year for you!

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  17. Thanks very much mate, and the same to you and your family

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  18. Do you mind if I ask what program you use to make all your vero layouts?

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  19. Hi Ricco, I use DIY Layout Creator 2.x beta.

    http://diy-fever.com/software/

    He does have a V3 out which is no doubt better, but I'm so used to V2 and comfortable with the quirks that I don't want to use anything else at the moment. I also think it gives you the best looking end results than any of the other versions or other similar software I've used, although this is just my personal preference of course.

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  20. I have seen a few youtube demos and then built one of these my self. It seem that this pedal is half way between a clean boost and a overdrive. any thought?

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    1. Seems a fair description. The Rangemaster, which this essentially is, is a dirty treble booster and so sits somewhere between a clean boost and conventional overdrive.

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  21. has anyone found a way to get a little more dirt out of this pedal?

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    1. this isnt a dirt pedal. it's a boost pedal that just happens to have a little amount of dirt. get a tube amp running hot either overdriven or on the verge and slam the input with this thing cranked! instant iommi!!! ... well if you have a dark decently gainy amp. I dont like the way these react with fender blackface amps (or most fenders) but I run this into a variety of the amp in box pedals set to dirty into my clean fender blackface... voila... baller... man I cant believe I hadnt found out about the amp in box pedals until now...amazing stuff there

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  22. Turn your amp up. With my amp (1972 Fender Musicmaster) this pedal works best when the amp is turned up to 7(out of 10). My amp has only a volume knob and a tone knob (no master volume), but the point is that you need to have the amp kind of dirty to begin with to get the best results. Mine is a very clean sounding Fender amp so it needs to be cranked up to 7, but if you use something dirtier, you may not need to turn up that much.
    Other than that, what transistor did you use? What are the gain and leakage measurements? I like the CV7112 (mil spec OC140) and that is what D*A*M uses as well.

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  23. I assume this a positive ground? no daisy chaining allowed ;o)

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    1. Why? Looks like normal +9V and negative ground to me....
      +m

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    2. Oh. You must have thought that because of the germanium transistor.. Well. It's germanium NPN, so i guess that something like AC176 will do. If it were PNP, then it would be with positive ground.

      The way i read the layout, you can use PNP germanium if you reverse all three electrolytics and swap ground and 9V between each other.

      I've read that the main reason for not many designs are using NPN germaniums is the price and rarity of those transistors. Currently there is one measured (hFE=85) NPN AC176 selling for 10$, so you can get four measured PNPs for that price...

      But. This layout is normal negative ground. And thus, can be daisy chained.
      +m

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    3. Haha.. no worries Mirosol, It was late and I didn't look close enough and disturbed Mark in the pub! ;o)...

      I've bought some AC176's (£1.81 for 2). Which isn't bad I suppose. Especially when I don't think I'll be making loads of them.

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    4. :) NP.

      Those weren't measured i guess?.. If you get larger batch, you can always try them in other NPN designs too. I think you would get nice results on vintage ones compared to low gain NPN silicon transistors.

      That was very reasonable price. You just have to hope they are not something like 10-30 hFE.. :)
      +m

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  24. I'd suggest looking on eBay for some MP38A's. They're not high gain but I bought 50 for £15 and the gain spread was from around 54 to 90 hfe which means you'll get a few good Rangemasters out of them and they sounded great in a Fuzz Face too, even if they don't reach the conventional gain level that some people suggest for Q2. And leakage was very low in all of them (between 0.11mA and 0.23mA). They're definitely the most consistent NPN germanium transistors I've come across.

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    1. Nice one, just bought some of those to ;o)

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    2. Same here. 50 coming up. These will be tried on all future NPN fuzzes :)
      +m

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    3. Can someone help me with the pinout of the MP38A? I have searched to no avail.

      TIA, J

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    4. Didn't you get russian datasheet with yours? If i recall correctly, the middle one is base and emitter has a dot marked on the hat. I could check it once i'm back home. You could also use your multimeter to check it. If it is in right orientation, it will show high hFE.
      +m

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    5. Thanks Miro. I don't have my order in hand yet. I will wait to see if the data sheet is included

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    6. I bought 40 MP38 (not "A") on eBay. I received them (44!) in a sealed aluminium bus, the space between the MP38's were filled to the top with all these usable tiny electronic parts like, different type of caps (>16V), PNP Si transistors, PNP Ge transistors with short legs. I measured a few Ge and they were in 70-80 hFE range, with low leakage! Si are in 150 - 600 range! I don't if this is how they send them out from Bulgaria.
      The seller said the MP38's gain measured between 35-75 hFE. I measured between 42-60 hFE with a Atlas DCA55.

      I'm still waiting for the MP38A's to arrive...

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    7. By the way, from the MP38 batch, leakage was very low in all of them (between 0.00mA and 0.06mA).

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    8. This is how our friendly seller in Bulgaria on eBay treats us (bg2014_manue or ml_electronic are his seller names) He has been very generous towards this community, and also provides some lovely components for us. I hope his stocks never dry up

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  25. Well this didn't work for me either :o(... I get a a constant whine with no guitar signal.(similar to the Java boost). I get a loud pop when I engage. All grounding is as it usually is as it's a test box. Bypass is fine. Tried multiple AC176's... Germaniums really don't like me.

    seriously mate, If you want my germaniums. There yours, I won't be attempting any more ge based builds.

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    1. There's got to be more to it than this mate, too much of a coincidence that you're having problems with this many. How have you determined the pinouts for the AC176?

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  26. I just look up the data sheet etc.. I've tried flipping it and it whines regardless of weather the transistor is on the board or not.. it pops and crackles when I insert the transistor so something is happening around the socket.. but after 4 attempts at ge boosts, I really don't want to attempt any more.

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    1. I don't believe it! the front pin of my trimmer was loose!I can't find any big ones so I had to bend and stretch the leads of a smaller one. .. yes it works now :) .... Still pops when engaging though?

      I really do apologise mate, This hobby has made me question my own sanity at times.

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    2. Try putting a 1M resistor from the 2nd to bottom row, you may be able to squeeze one in between the 5n and 2u2 caps.

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    3. I've cut some rows and shifted components over so wasn't there a 1m i could put on the switch? I just can't remember where.

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    4. Yes you could, just put it between the board input wire and the LED ground lug

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    5. Cheers mate, Just read a bit about it and the popping is quite common in these, Dave says he would rather make them without LED's but people would just request them.

      p.s... This pedal is truly magnificent!.... in front of a meathead it's sonic bliss!

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  27. So I think I know how to convert this to positive ground...
    PNP transistor of course, then I would need to reverse the polarity of all the lytics. would I need to do anything else?

    Thanks guys!

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    1. Late answer, but yes. That's right. You don't need to do anything else.

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  28. Hi , I have an OC140 of 180 hFe this will work ok or it is very high hfe?

    thank you very much

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    1. That should be perfect. That is high, but boosters want high hFE values.
      +m

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  29. Just put one of these together but having problems getting it to work... Tried to bias it but tweaking the preset the range of voltages at the collector i get is from 0.00v to 0.10v. Power supply gives me 9.45v.
    I used two AC176, and got the same result from both. Any idea on what might have gone wrong?
    Here's a couple of photos in case I'm missing something obvious (as it uually is the case when debugging...):
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/65506935/Photo%2007-12-2012%2019%2057%2042.jpg
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/65506935/Photo%2007-12-2012%2019%2058%2000.jpg
    Thanks in advance

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    1. Orange wire from boost lug 3 - One row higher. Explains why you don't get any voltage on the collector...
      +m

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    2. Should have said "as it always is the case"... :)

      Great sounding pedal, loving the way it pushes my little Vox amp.

      I find the Range control isn't very interesting past noon while at lower settings it gives a nice warm treble boost sound like its daddy (the rangemaster) without getting as icy and trebly as the Vox Treble Booster.

      Might try and swap values or socket the input caps to see how I can change the range of the sweep...

      Anyway, thanks a lot Miro, helpful as ever. Sometimes two eyes dimply don't cut the mustard for me...! :)

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    3. Good to hear you got it running...
      +m

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  30. Just finished my Rooster using a metal can 2n2222A for now, as my MP38's haven't arrived yet.

    This is my first rangemaster type pedal

    Problem.....when my guitar is on either single pickup (ES336CS) the tone thins out like there's an impedance problem.....when on the center position with both pickups, tone is great. It only happens when the pedal is on....when I bypass it, problem disappears.

    Question....is this normal for a rangemaster, or is there somewhere I should look in the circuit for a solution?

    Geezer

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  31. Figured to out.....it was the 2n2222A tranny. Put several other Si units in (mpsa18, BC184) and the problem is gone.
    Man, there is a wide range of gain effects possible with this by subbing different transistors with varying Hfe levels. So for the guy above who wanted more dirt, try different/higher Hfe transistors!Can't wait for the germanium units to arrive to see what it should really sound like.

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  32. thanks for the layout! sounds great, i did however somehow manage to build this assuming it was postive ground with PNP tranny and even built the voltage converter for it and played for half n hour without noticing! well i swapped the lytics and things are all gravy now and sounding great, really nice to crank a fuzz face up a notch into some crazy territory, much appreciated

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  33. so to make this layout useable with a PNP germ I just need to flip the capacitors and use a battery?

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  34. i asked the above question because i saw mirosol gave two different answers and i was worried about frying my transistor...

    the correct answer is flip the electrolytics and flip the 9v and ground connections.

    now, i dont feel like this circuit has enough treble or nearly as much as rangemasters i've played. I already made the mistake of putting a 47n cap instead of 4.7n (5n on the layout) so I corrected that. Would it be worthwhile to put the 5n cap (4.7n in my case) on a switch with some different values? like maybe 1n in the center 2.2n on one side and 3.3n? or would there even be that much difference?

    Thanks!

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    1. Couldn't find my other answer...

      There's this:
      http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.fi/2012/05/rangemaster-with-switchable-input-caps.html

      Input determines the range - 4n7 being the orginal value with most of the lower frequencies cut off. Smaller will make it even thinner, while bigger makes it fatter.
      +m

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    2. i have had a crazy experience wih this circuit. i put the smaller input cap on a switch and found that 1n gave me less treble than 4n7... then i tried 560pf and it was even less. then i got a bit more treble out of 10n over 4n7 and then back to less treble with 22n! I checked all of this with my multimeter like 30 times... measuring caps, making sure i had the right cap in the switch etc etc... could a larger pot value for the range knob help? I dont feel like the stock 4n7 (5n) is giving me as much treble as a rangemaster typically does

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  35. also, it may be because I am getting -5v at the collector and it was noted above that the collector voltage should be -6.66v. I removed the trimmer from the layout because I used a transistor from small bear where he included the matched resistors. I had a 3.6k and a 51k (subbed for the 68k). What value resistor could I use to get a bit closer to 6.66v? and would this even be the problem?

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  36. and here is a question... anyone know if this should be biased with the range knob CW or CCW? because it is affecting the bias point on my build. CW the bias is lower (about 3.6v) and CCW it is about 4.5v (i might be wrong on the CW number, but it is lower)

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  37. so does this bias differently than a regular rangemaster- smallbear sent me a 51k and 3.6k resistor (supposed to match the $8 transistor so you dont have to mess with biasing) but mine ended up biasing with the 3.6k and a 75k resistor.

    you think this biases up differently or they screwed up the resistor (funny i think the only other germ transistor i bought from him came with those exact resistor values- though i didnt even check that one for correct bias years ago

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  38. sorry for commenting so much on this circuit, but its driving me nuts! it sounds great and has some amazing harmonic germanium dirt. But it isnt bright enough- granted it is bright like a treble booster, but i'm not getting that cutting piercing rangemaster tone.

    So i put the input caps on a switch and I swear the 1n side of the switch is not as bright as the 4.7n side! is it something to do with the range control and the 2.2uf cap? shouldnt 1n be super bright for the input cap of a rangemaster?

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  39. I've built this pedal but cannot for the life of me get it to work. When I plug it in I do get a bypassed sound but when activated the output drops to the point I have to crank the amp to even hear it and even then it is muffled. I have traced it with my audio probe and it looks like the signal stops right after the resistors. Does anyone have any insight as to what I am doing wrong? I would great appreciate any advice. Please and thank you.

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  40. anyone got anything regarding my range control dilemma above? should i try lowering the 2.2uf input cap?

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  41. Try changing the 5n cap to a smaller value that might give you more treble.

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  42. i just was looking at the D.A.M. website and it says the red rooster uses either an oc45 or oc71 transistor. I'm not absolutely sure after a few minutes on google (a lot of ebay sellers dont even say whether the transistor they're selling is NPN or PNP) but it appears they are PNP transistors? correct?

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  43. wow my first strpboard vero build and its awesome. THANK YOU IVIARK you rock Sir. So now its just a matter of bias and transistor selection. i am using 2n1302 texas instruments. they sound really good i guess. i have a couple of questions any recommendations for bias i tried the 6.2 6.66 and 7.2 they all sound good. my transistors are all between 78 and 97 i have six. what are the ups and downs of higher and lower bias? also how can i get just a little more gain out of these transistors? can raising or lowering the 68k resistor or one of the others give me just a little more raunch ? thanks in advance and thank you IVIark!!!

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  44. Built it with an OC44 (pnp, ~130 hfe), but had to add the 1M resistor between row 2 to bottom so now it doesn`t pop/klick anymore. But is that loud crackling normal when turning the volume pot on the guitar? In some videos on youtube i couldn`t find noise in that way. (Measured all parts so they are exact/ closest to the suggested values).

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    1. Yes that's common with the Rangemaster circuit

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    2. Ok thanks Mark. So i assume the noisiness when effect is engaged is normal too? Or is it depending from anything else, maybe qualitity of parts?

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    3. i have built a few of these. use metal film resistors metalized caps where possible. twist non power wires together. route power wires seperate and use shielded input output cable. if you do all of this it kills at least 20 percent of the white noise.

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  45. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  46. I've build this circuit two times now, and all i get is a very loud ground noise and a very weak guitar signal underneath - what could be wrong?

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  47. Hi everyone, I've been reading your posts as preparation for my first project for some time. I did try to learn as much as I could since, not to bother you with too much questions. But there is still one I want to ask: can someone please explain, as no one mentioned it as far as I could find, what is the function of the little rivet placed next to input jack. My guess is: the earth. If so, what is the alternative in the layout proposed by Mark? If no one is adding it to their builds, then I suppose that it's not necessary? Ok, is there a good soul to satisfy my curiosity? Any kind of info to make me understand a little more is more then welcome! Thanks a lot in advance!

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  48. That rivet is there to ground the enclosure.

    If you use insulated jacks like DAM does, this is necessary. If you use metal frame jacks, the enclosure can be grounded through the sleeve of the input and/or output jacks.

    Check the offboard wiring tab at the top of the page to see one way you can wire this up

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  49. Thanks a lot Travis! I do have some insulated jacks, so happy to know now how to use them properly! I did some research to find a tool to squeeze those rivets on the enclosure, but the thing is very confusing. Do you have by any chance a link or some precision about the tool and size/material of rivets to use? Thanks a lot again + many good things in 2017!

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  50. My build is working and passing current but the hiss is insane, my guitar is barely audible, and the boost knob is working only counter-clockwise. Can anyone tell me what went wrong? Is the input off the range knob supposed to go to the center lug of the footswitch like in the offboard diagram?

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    1. hello. switch the wiring on the boost knob to work clockwise. If you've made the board exactly as it shows here it should be playing perfectly. I've tested this myself.

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  51. Hello IvIark and thank you for the veroboard. I've made two of these with NPN and they sound amazing.

    I was wondering. Could you please draw a new one for PNP germanium so i could build one with OC71? Thanks in advance!

    baouftou

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    1. hey man. there's really is no need to make a new layout it's a really easy thing to do. just take the electrolytics and flip them so the negative and positive are on the opposite side from where they are now, and you'll connected the +9V to where ground is on the board, and the ground to where the +9V is on the board now. basically you're just reversing the polarity of anything that's polarize and flipping the ground and +9V.

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  52. Ill have to ground the 3pdt and input jacks to where the +9 is now as well right?

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    1. Correct. You're switching the polarity of the circuit, so it will be positive ground as opposed to negative ground. So wire it up like normal, but treat positive as ground and ground as positive.

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    2. Hey Zach and thanks for helping!

      I made this as you told me with an OC71. It all works well great tone!! but the range doesnt go further than 1/3. Is this a transtor issue or propably cuz of wiring?

      All i did was build the vero normaly but reversed polarity on the capacitors. And wired the Ground to +9 of battery and the +9 to ground of battery. ( following up on the inputs, switch etc )

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    3. actually the pedal doesnt give sound anymore after the range has passed 1/3.

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    4. Hmmm, something doesn't make sense. Post some pics in the debugging section of the forum and I'll gladly take a look. Make sure you get the top and bottom of the board.

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