Wednesday 19 March 2014

Tronographic Rusty Box

After a request John K has said that he's happy to have his layouts posted on the main site so there will be a few of these showing up over the next few days.  All layouts posted are verified by John and others in many cases so you can definitely build with confidence.  Starting with the Tronographic Rusty Box:

Info from the manufacturer about the original:

The rusty box is a pre-amp effect pedal optimized for bass guitar. The controls on the rusty box include input gain, bass, middle and treble eq, master volume and a boost footswitch. The rusty box is true bypass and has a balanced output for use as a direct box.















81 comments:

  1. Thx for the layout.
    Can someone please give me a hint where to buy the C15K mid pot.

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    Replies
    1. just use a C25K and connect a 39K resistor between lugs 1 & 3. that's makes it a C15.23K pot.

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    2. Hmm. Not exactly. The value is 15.23K, but the taper will be affected. I bet that's usable and works well, but taper will be closer to linear than rev log.
      +m

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    3. IMO, its close enough. that's what I used in mine and it works just fine.

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    4. That's what i thought. It may offer even better feel with that custom taper.

      I must say i'm impressed on your work John. We need you to tackle the bigger circuits :)
      +m

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    5. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    6. I just compared the curve of the C25K potentiometer at 10 positions with and without the 39K resistor.
      I think the difference is negligible:
      https://imgur.com/k1BWK2t

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  2. isn't the 10k to ground attached on the switch redundant with what's already on the board?

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  3. ok, it seems that "redundant" isn't exactly what "redondant" means in French :D
    what I'm trying to say is that the 10k to ground and SW1 is already on the board, right?

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  4. I think that it is. I must've added the resistor to the switch before I added to the board and forgot to delete it.

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  5. OK, so far, I can't get it to work... high pitch whine only

    I've checked all links and cuts and started probing. Well,not too long, since I get nothing at pin 6 of the IC

    Power supply delivers +15V/-15V as expected, but as soon as i insert the IC in the socket, -15 "drops" at -9V-ish... I suspect a short somewhere, but really can't find it...

    could it be a "weak" or faulty 7660S in the supply?

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  6. Swapped the 7660S for 1044S... powered with battery and 2 different Power Supplies, same result (swapped the TL071 too, by the way)

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  7. just in case...

    the only thing i'm not too sure about is the Zeners on the voltage converter (15V, but don't know the reference) and on the converter, I've used 16V electrolytics... could it make a difference?

    here are the voltages...

    IC
    -8.8
    -3.8 (drops till it stabilizes at this value)
    0
    -10.05
    0
    -8.83
    15.4
    0

    Q1
    D: 0
    S: 0
    G: -8.77

    Q2
    C: 15.5
    B: -0.7
    E: -1.95

    Q3
    E: 0.65
    B: 0
    C: -3.68

    Q4
    E: 0.65
    B: 0.03
    C: -3.68

    Q5
    E: 0.65
    B: 0.03
    C: -3.68

    Q6
    E: 0.65
    B: 0.03
    C: -10.05

    Q7
    E: 0.65
    B: 0.03
    C: -10.05

    Q8
    E: 0.65
    B: 0.03
    C: -10.05

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    Replies
    1. if it helps, here's the Traynor TS50B schematic which the Rusty Box is an exact clone of.


      http://johnkvintageguitars.homestead.com/Effects/Fuzz-ODs/RustyBox/traynor-bass-ts50b-amplifier-schematic.png

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    2. i'll try to out my RB tonight and measure the voltages so you'll have something to compare yours to.

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  8. that's very nice of you, john, thanks!

    I'm suspecting those 16V electros on the voltage converter, I've ordered some 50V ones

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  9. usually a 16V cap will handle a bit more than 16V, but I always use a minimum of 25V caps for the filters.

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  10. OK, I've isolated the Negative Supply Doubler and when I put a 820 ohm resistor between ground and -18V (just above 20mA), voltage drops at -14V...

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  11. ok, I give up! I'll do it again from scratch some time soon, I guess.

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  12. Did you search for the error again? Aside from some shorts my build behaves similar to yours. If I put in the IC the voltage drops to -11V. Also I get -Vcc on the ICs Pin 6 (Out) which imo is not supposed to happen...

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    Replies
    1. So, toyed around with some 9V batteries. With them connected (+/-9V) it works. Time to rework the power supply.

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  13. I just pulled out my build. my741 chip measures these voltages with a 9.16V power supply:
    pin:
    1: -15.21V
    2: -.012V
    3: -.012V
    4: -15.21V
    5: -15.21V
    6: +0.67V
    7: +15.31V
    8: 0V

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  14. IMPORTANT! I just noticed on mine that pin 5 of the 741 chip Isn't connected to ground! (it's not grounded on the schematic either!) so add a cut just to the right of it like this:

    http://johnkvintageguitars.homestead.com/Effects/Fuzz-ODs/RustyBox/0001-RustyBoxVEROVerified2.png

    hopefully IvIark will update the layout.

    this is probably the reason that people getting the wrong voltage (i.e. voltage dropping when the 741 is inserted into the socket). i'm very sorry about that!

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    Replies
    1. oh, and I meant TL071 and not a 741, but a 741 does work just as well in the circuit.

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    2. wow. that was fast! thanks!

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  15. mmmm i guess i will get back to this, then!

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  16. that + a faulty MPSA18 and it's done, at last! thanks for the update, john!
    2 things, though:
    LOUD squeal at 7kHz + harmonic(s) (using SCPA charge pumps, but it's not boxed yet, so I'm hoping for the best)
    Treble works reverse (double checked my wiring) but maybe it's intended as a cut?

    thanks again!

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    Replies
    1. Hmmm. mine doesn't have any squeal due the charge pumps at all. you might try jumpering the cut between pins 1 & 8 on the negative supply doubler to see if that helps but i'm pretty sure I have a cut there on mine with no squealing.

      i'll have to check the orientation of the treble pot again but it is definitely not a treble cut control and max treble is with it at fully clockwise.

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    2. I'm not sure it is "charge pump related", I hope that it will vanish once boxed.

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    3. I'm having similar issues, I reversed the wiring on the treble pot and it works as intended now (I think).

      I'm getting the same high pitched whine, I've tried several 7660's with no change, I tried jumping pins 1&8 and that just cut the whole thing off. What else can I try? It's quite irritating.

      Another issue I've had is I can't get the boost switch to work, nothing seems to happen when it is engaged.

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    4. yes, the treble pot's lugs 1 & 3 were backwards. I sent Mark the correct layout so i'm sure that he'll post it soon.

      my boost switch works perfect so you must have an error somewhere.
      and there's no high pitched whine in mine either. only the positive 7660S has pins 1&8 connected. the negative converter one doesn't.

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    5. Weird, I'll go over everything again with a fine tooth comb tonight, thanks for the quick reply John!

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    6. Got it working 100%. Turns out I was a complete idiot and was jumping pins 4 and 5 instead of 1 and 8. So I jumped the right pins this time and it worked like a charm.
      The boost problem was the transistor, I had to find replacement for the hard to find 5245, and the pinout is reversed. turned it 180 and everything now works perfect. Great pedal!

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    7. Glad to hear that you got it working Garth! the pinout on my 2N5245 is oriented as shown, but I just looked online and it seems that other manufacturers have it flipped 180 degrees.

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  17. I'm struggling to find a 2N5245 in the U.K.. Can anyone recommend an alternative please?

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    Replies
    1. I believe that an SK170 would be a suitable replacement. just mind its different pinout.

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    2. Thanks very much - there's a few of those on ebay to investigate.

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    3. I've used both a 2n5245 and a BF256B with no difference. To my understanding, it's used as a switch

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  18. here's a pic of my build... at last!

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/118474006@N06/13996630420/

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  19. the 1k5 resistor is definitely one row too low, now...

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  20. and there's a link missing from the 27k resistor going to Q4 base

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  21. ok, i might stop now for tonight, but i also found a misplaced cut under the big jumper on the left side: 1uF and 220nF should be connected

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  22. the 6k8 resistor from Q2 emitter should go to -15V and not to ground. i WILL finish it tonight :D
    I thought that building another one would be a piece of cake :D

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  23. I've made so many updates over the last year that I lost track of which one was which. I went over it again today and this one is the best one yet:

    http://johnkvintageguitars.homestead.com/Effects/Fuzz-ODs/RustyBox/00001-RustyBoxVERO6-19-14.png

    hopefully Mark will update it soon.

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  24. Hi. Is the SW3 lug on the Input pad switch unused? Also, is the boost switch just an on-off SPST switch?

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  25. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  26. Hooray, mine's working. Thanks for the help. I used a 2N5952 for the boost switch in the end. I also had the high pitched whining until I connected 1 and 8 on the negative supply doubler. It seems quite hissy when boosted - maybe to be expected or maybe charge pump related or maybe it needs a better enclosure.

    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=EEDCA8C5C0DD736F!1002&authkey=!AJ1S_Il9gOvbSf8&v=3&ithint=photo%2c.jpg

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  27. excellent! nice enclosure!

    what layout did you use? the one that is currently online?
    fyi, I've had good results powering the rusty box with the "bipolar voltage converter" you can find here:
    http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.fr/2014/01/bipolar-voltage-converter.html

    here's a second one I built:
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/118474006@N06/14277944548/

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    Replies
    1. Cheers. Your Poulpy Box design looks great - and the others. Yes, I started building mine at the start of May using the design posted here - then i was awaiting delivery of some components (I think they got held up by the coup in Thailand.) I'm not sure if the layout changed in the interim. I reckon I'll try that "bipolar voltage converter" and see if it improves things. It'll save space as it's crowded in there; especially with a 9v battery

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  28. Hi,

    Thanks for the layout!

    Here's a photo of one that I put together over the past couple of months:
    http://imgur.com/gm1o4E4

    e

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  29. Could anyone clarify the grounding? Are all grounds joined together to the chassis or is PSU separated? Thanks.

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  30. I'm not understanding the power supply. Does this take a 9v, or 18v power supply?

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    Replies
    1. Nevermind, I think I got it. 9v+ attaches to two separate boards. Sorry guys.

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  31. Can anyone recommend a substitute for the 2N5245 and MPS8598? Neither Mouser, Tayda, nor any of my local electronics shops has them in stock. I saw the earlier post about subbing an SK170 or BF256B, but I'm not having any luck finding them, either.
    With the zeners, will any 15V zener do, or do they have to be the NTE5024A (can't find them in stock, either)?
    Cheers, Pat

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  32. I got some advice over at DIY Stompboxes that any PNP general purpose transistor will do in place of the MPS8598, and any N-channel jfet will do for the 2N5245. I'm going to try with 2N3906 in place of the MPS8598 and I have some spare 2N5952 jfets from a phase 90 project, so I'll give one of them a shot.
    Next question, where does the balanced output connect to? I'm guessing that there needs to be some extra circuitry, given that there's only a TL071 in there at the moment.

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  33. Well, I'm going for it! Figured out everything, but when it came to grounding I got a little confused. At first I thought all grounding is common. Then I saw a Schematic John Kallas posted http://johnkvintageguitars.homestead.com/Effects/Fuzz-ODs/RustyBox/traynor-bass-ts50b-amplifier-schematic.png . 4 different grounds are marked and I got overwhelmed :) Can somebody please clear this out?

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    Replies
    1. Well, after a long research, I've dug up an older pic of John's build guts. http://johnkvintageguitars.homestead.com/Effects/Fuzz-ODs/RustyBox/03-RustyBoxComplete.jpg I hope he doesn't mind. Some eye-burning comparing and cable tracking made me decide that, yes, all ground is common.

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  34. It could be just me... but this layout omitted the balanced out, right?

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  35. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  36. I've built a perfectly working Box so I'll share my voltages for whoever needs them. These are using the Bipolar Voltage converter instead of the Rusty Supply. All settings zero.

    Input 9.4V

    --Converter--
    Ic LT1054

    1. 9.0
    2. 4.4
    3. 0
    4.-4.4
    5.-8.6
    6. 5.4
    7. 5.1
    8. 9.0
    +17.3
    Outputs{
    -16.8

    --Rusty Box--
    Ic Tl071

    1.-16.7
    2. 0
    3. 0
    4.-17.8
    5.-16.7
    6. 0
    7. 17.4
    8. 0

    Q1 - BF256B

    D. 0
    S. 0
    G.-15.9

    Q2 - MPSA18

    C. 18.1
    B. -1.7
    E. -3.7

    Q3
    C. -7.4
    B. 0
    E. 0.6

    Q4
    C.-5.9
    B. 0
    E. 0.6

    Q5
    C.-17.6
    B. 0
    E. 0.6

    Q6
    C.-17.6
    B. 0
    E. 0.6

    Q7
    C.-7.1
    B. 0
    E. 0.6

    Q8
    C.-17.6
    B. 0
    E. 0.6

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  37. Hey! If you want to make things a little simpler, just omit the JFET and the 100k and 47k resistor associated with it and simply connect your favorite spst switch to where the drain and source would be connected. I assume the reason why Yorkville used the JFET in the TS-50b amp - of which the rusty box is based on - int the first place is that they incorporated a footswitch jack as well as the front panel boost switch, and that they wanted to avoid signal currents to flow in the footswitch cable which would eventualy present some unintended capacitance to the signal chain as well as increase the risk of picking up extra hum and noise ;) The function of the JFET is just as a switch and has nothing to do with the timbre of the circuit - no mojo here!

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  38. Just finished this and it works fantastically. I used 2n3906 for Q 3-8 and J201 for Q 1. I also used the bipolar voltage converter with 1n4001 diodes.

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    Replies
    1. For the mids pot, I used C50k with a 22k resistor between lug 1 and 3

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  39. I'm looking to control the volume of the boost. Replacing the 100k resistor with a 100k pot, will that do it?

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  40. Can anyone clarify how the pad switch is connected to the input and board?

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  41. Thanks for the post checkout the best video bass booster app for android.

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  42. Thank you for sharing this information, Its has help me to know more about Video Bass Booster

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  43. sry for necroposting, but there is 48 cuts on vero and it's written that 47 cuts

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  44. Hi, i have problems with put a led in the foot boost switch. Boost sw1 to ground, Boost sw2 to board. Where i can put a led to know when is on and off.im newbie and Sorry for my english

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  45. Build it with BF256B as Q1 and BC557A as Q3-8. works and sounds great

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  46. First: Thanks Ivlark, Johnk, Cylens and thank you to everyone, who shared their experience!
    You have made my last 3 weeks! I'll share some of my experience with you!

    Here are some pictures of my Rusty Cardboard Box along with other documentation like my wiring
    and some troubleshooting:

    https://imgur.com/a/4IvzIxM

    This is the first pedal I've ever built. So far I have only soldered some jack connectors together.
    I've wanted to build a pedal myself for so long.
    I don't know why I chose this. The simple design got me hooked and i thought:
    "I can do it! I will do it! I will get the parts! No more excuses!"

    I've learned a lot about electronics, components and pedals in the past few weeks.
    I was surprised that it worked the first time it was plugged in. That blew my mind! I was ready to debug.

    I'm deeply amazed by the results. I've never came across such an organic, great sounding EQ section.
    The knobs really do something and feel like they let you adjust the overdrive in the 3 different bands.
    You can get grunted mids while having clean-ish bass or the opposite.
    The knobs seem to be interdependent. Really cool!
    The Low-Hi switch seems to affect the higher frequencies. But in a good way.
    You can get so many nice sounds out of this Box!

    To me, from clean to slightly crunchy, it even feels right when plugged directly into studio monitors without using an amp.

    I'm glad I chose this pedal as my first and not a boring TS808 or Centaur ;)
    The next goal will be to include LEDs and to fit everything into a 1590B enclosure.
    I think it is possible, but maybe some changes need to be done.

    ------------------------------------------------------

    To save yourself some time if you want to build this yourself,
    here is the parts list for the pedal without the power supply:

    --------------- Resistors 25x:
    - 470R
    - 680R
    - 1.5 K 2x
    - 2.2 K 2x
    - 4.7 K 3x
    - 6.8 K 3x
    - 8.2 K
    - 10 K 2x
    - 15 K
    - 18 K 3x
    - 27 K 2x
    - 100K
    - 270K
    - 1 M
    - 1.5 M

    --------------- Capacitors 17x:
    Electrolytic:
    - 4.7uF 3x

    Film:
    - 1n5 / 1500pF / 0.0015uF
    - 6n8 / 6800pF / 0.0068uF
    - 33nF / 0.033uF 3x
    - 47nF / 0.047uF 3x
    - 68nF / 0.068uF
    - 100nF / 0.1uF
    - 220nF / 0.22uF 2x
    - 1uF

    Ceramic:
    - 47pF / 0.047nF

    --------------- Transistors:
    - Q1: 2N5245 or BF256B(confirmed by cylens) or J201(confirmed by Juanito) J211(confirmed by me)
    - Q2: MPSA18
    - Q3-8: MPS8598 or 2N3906(confirmed by Juanito) or BC557A(confirmed by MountBashful)

    --------------- Pots:
    - A1M
    - C15K (or C25K and 39K Resistor / or C50k and 22k Resistor)
    - B50K
    - A50K 2x

    ---------------IC:
    - TL071

    --------------- Diodes:
    - 1N4148 2x

    --------------- Think about:
    - IC socket, transistor socket(optional. I should have done this to test different ones :( )
    - 9V DC plug that isn't connected to the case. I don't want to advertise, but it was hard to find at first.
    Something like "Schurter 4840.2200" should fit. I used something similar unbranded.
    - Vero board^^
    - Knobs
    - 1/4in / 6.3mm mono jacks
    - +/- 3ft(1m) wire for the links on the vero, +/- 6ft(2m) stranded wire for the cabling. Better get more!
    - Switches. 3PDT or DPDT with or without LED? Check:
    http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/2012/02/offboard-wiring.html
    http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/2014/01/millennium-bypass-2.html

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  47. Is there a different balanced and unbalanced out? I've looked over this vero a million times (haven't started the build yet, doing so today) and i'm not seeing two outputs; only the one from the 2nd lug of the volume pot.

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  48. Question about the 4k7 connecting Q1 gate to ground (via the 100k resistor) - the schematic has it as 47k, was the change intentional or a typo, and will it make any difference?

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  50. A note on the high pitched whine issue - I was having the same problem and jumping pins 1 and 8 on the negative voltage doubler worked when it was unboxed.
    Board layout and crosstalk between the ins, outs, and various boards is important, though, my box is very crowded and components are in close proximity. The whine/whistling noise came back depending on where I moved the voltage boards and how hard I pressed, and pressing on Q1 even made it pick up radio stations!

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