Friday, 1 March 2013

Analogman Sunface NKT275

Positive ground effect so as usual consider using the negative voltage inverter.  Info from Analog Mike about his germanium original:

We are now making these in our own cases, as the Analog Man Sun Face . They are hand-built in the USA in small gold boxes, with our own USA made SUNFACE circuit board, which was made small enough to fit in almost any enclosure. As you can see in the picture down below a bit, this is a VERY high quality board of the same type used on our other pedals. It is better quality than almost any other fuzzface clone you will find, with shielding, plated through-holes, etc to meet military specs. It also has an internal CLEAN trim pot (white knob). This trim pot acts just like turning down the VOLUME knob on your guitar, to clean up the fuzz. It can be used to preset the sound as with the volume knob rolled back a bit. It also allows easier control of the volume knob on your guitar when the white CLEAN trim pot is turned a bit. It can also be used to kill Radio Frequency Interference, which may be a problem on high gain pedals in some areas, by turning it down a hair. like all our handmade pedals, the Sunface has true bypass, so when off they do not alter your sound at all. The CLEAN trimpot will also allow the sunface to work better after a vintage style wah pedal, without having to use a foxrox wah retrofit.

2012 Sun Face : in 2012 we started using a brighter, shinier gold box for the smaller Sunface pedals, as seen on the pedal on the right. I like the gold color better. The Z VEX power plate will fit these cases well too. 


I'd probably suggest using a 10K for the Sundial.  5K + 2K2 doesn't even equal the usual resistor in that position in a Fuzz Face (8K2) and so I think you want to give yourself a bit extra.






Revised 13-03-2014 to use common single turn trimmer.

88 comments:

  1. Awesome! I have 4 sets of Newmarket red-dot NKT275 trannies, with proper hFe. Can't wait to make a few of these SunFaces, with voltage inverter, as gifts for friends.

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    1. You are indeed my friend, Mark! You have given me so many hours of joy, I can't even count them.

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  2. So, is the "sundial" effectively a bias trimmer, then?
    Just trying to understand the circuit....since it feeds right out of the collector.

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    1. Spot on, a 20k pot would allow you to mis-bias it more and maybe get some spluttery sounds out of it if your battery is starting to die.

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  3. Could 'I also use some other pnp ge transistors instead of NKT275. The ANALOGMAN BC108 seems to be the same layout but only with BC108 :-)
    What are the recommended hfe values of the GEs ...?

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    1. 70-90 hfe for Q1, 120-140 for Q2 I think are the generally accepted Fuzz Face ranges but some people prefer Q1 being higher than Q2, other prefer higher values for everything to give a more compressed tone. I've heard people say that the main difference is the difference in hfe between Q1 and Q2 rather than the hfe's themselves.

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    2. It's amatter of taste anyway. I always tend to lower values on fuzz pedals. On fuzz face like circuits, I generally use Q1 70hfe and Q2 ~110.

      On tone benders 50-60- ~100, and in Fuzz Factory Q2 55 Q3 ~75. I find these valus better sounding and more controllable at the expense of lower total gain.

      But just socket and try what sounds better to you

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    3. Thanks a lot for the values and explanation ...
      TAGBOARDEFFECTS Rules !!! :-)

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    4. Yes it is the same layout, except the NKT275 version has a positive ground so the supply connections and 22u cap are reversed. The only usual difference between a germanium and silicon Fuzz Face is the 470R resistor for germanium is swapped for 330R in the silicon version, but it still works fine with a 470R and the Sundial allows you to bias anyway.

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  4. Hi
    does anybody know this fuzz?
    I do not find a lot of information about.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRtf1qP7X1c

    Make it sence to have a Vero for that (switching between AC128 and NKT275 :-)and the tweaks for lower end ?

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    1. I'm guessing the circuit is essentially the same but with bigger input /output caps and to get the transistor switching maybe an 3pdt switch to change which transistor the connections goes to. To be honest I'm not sure about that bit but it should work. I'm sure one of the other guys here will know better.

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  5. I´ve built it (not with this layout) a while ago with Ac128´s. One of the best sounding fuzzes i´ve ever heard. I love how the volume pot on the guitar works with it! Recommended for every fuzz lover! Peace

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  6. Hmmm...just tried to build this. I'm getting plenty of fuzz, but its incredibly raspy and trebly....

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    1. What transistors have you used and did you measure them? Have you got any others you can try?

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    2. I used two 2h404 transistors. I THINK I have the correct pinout. I have a few others. All around 60 hfe. I know this is quite low. But i've read that low HFE transistors can also work pretty well.

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    3. I also used the negative voltage converter.

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    4. Are you getting -9V at pin 5 of the IC?

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    5. Yes. I tried higher gain transistors. About 120hfe. Basically the same thing. Its fuzzy, but all trebly gritty. I will keep staring at this board for a while...

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    6. If all else is good then consider increasing the output cap. The scheme I did this from had a 10nF, but I've seen them with a 47nF and someone else has said a 100nF. That would let more bass frequencies out of the circuit and so may tone things down a bit.

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    7. Okay, I'm getting closer. It seems the problem is the Volume pot. Turned up high, the things sound great, but when its set to unity or below, it significantly cuts the bass frequencies and sounds shrill beyond belief.

      So just to be clear. VOL Lug 2 AND the Board's Output BOTH go to the Output lug on the 3pdt. Is that correct?

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    8. No, the output of the board goes to Volume 3, Volume 2 goes to the stomp switch, Volume 1 goes to ground. I's my fault, I didn't mark the board up properly, so I'll correct that now

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    9. Ah, that did it! Sounds great now. I find the CLEAN pot very useful, and will most certainly make this an external control. Which will make this a 4-knob fuzz...in a 1590A of course! Thanks again guys for a great layout.

      Next up: MKII Tonebender (with voltage converter), Bearhug Compressor, ROG Tonemender, Fairfield Barbershop, and a FOXX Tone Machine! Lets see how many of these I can get done before I leave on tour! Just waiting on a huge parts order to arrive. Hopefully today!

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    10. Aaaaaaaand.....the post office lost my Tayda package. Nice...

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  7. i know recommended ranges are given, but it would be nice if the folks that have the actual unit before tracing or laying out, actually supply the exact gains, leakages, and voltages so that the finished until it SPOT-ON

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  8. Hi there all. Would I be wrong in thinking to convert this to a negative ground effect all that's required is to attach ground to row 1 left(where -9V is marked), and attach +9V to row 10 left (where =ve ground is marked)? Being as the input capacitor (1 uF) is non-polarised that looks like thats it. Even the 22 uF can stay where it is it looks. I found this link which seens right http://www.muzique.com/lab/fuzzface.htm .
    If anyone can give me the tick of approval, that would be great.
    I'm thinking about putting both sunfaces (NKT275 & BC108) into the one box and making it switchable. Having the same power input would make it easier.
    One final thing, more for the BC108, is the sundial worthy of keeping or just putting a 8.2K resistor in there sufficent?
    Cheers to you all for any help and as always....LOVE THIS SITE, you guys ROCK!!

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    1. Would be safer to include a voltage inverter on the NKT Sundial board, nd forget about changing board ground but still using PNP transistors.

      As for the Sundial Knob.... well, you should anyway include a 10k trim instead of the pot or the 8.2k resistor, so.... I would keep the sundial knob.

      BR

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  9. Si fuzz's really don't need a bias knob unless you like to tweak the bias to get some different sounds. But hey! sounds kind of cool having both in one box! GO for it and report back

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  10. I noticed on my friends white dot NKT sunface,
    it has 1 orange metal film cap and 2 axial blue electro's
    1u and a 22u.
    So is that 1u cap suppose to be an electro?

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    1. Well it's an axial electro in the original, personally I'd always use a poly cap to replace an electrolytic if I have one in the value, but that's down to the builder.

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    2. Perfect! If a poly works there I will use what I have on hand

      Thanks IvIark!

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  11. Just finished getting this going, sounds ace! I ended up using some AC127's q1: 75 hfe, q2: 114 hfe. I removed the 33k resistor and replaced it with a 50k trimmer to bias q1 collector to 1.4v. I used a 10k pot as suggested for the sundial which works great. Oh, I replaced the 2.2k resistor with a 4.7k to get the sundial in a more usable position.
    For those interested, I built this and the bc108 version on one board and they both run great. I made it do you can have on /off for both effects to true bypass on one stomp switch and a second stomp switch toggles between the two. Very usable.they clean up great as well.
    I'll describe the bc108 on its post.
    Over and out.

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    1. Nice one Jeff, two verifications in one! :o)

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  12. I forgot to add after that ramble that I made the 7660 voltage inverter for this pedal to run standard +ve earth supply.

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  13. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  14. Hmm...I want to cut some bass, should I lower the input cap, or the output cap?

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    1. You could take the output cap (10n) out and put it on a DPDT switch - I would probably put 4n7 and 22n on it. 4n7 for thin, vintage bass cut and 22n for full bass response. Or you could expriment with On-Off-On switch and put 4n7 in the middle, 5n6 an the upper lugs and 15n to the lower ones - Or just try out the values that suit you :)

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  15. Thanks ,mirosol. I read that it originally had 100n as the output cap. He now uses 10. Still too much for me.

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  16. This might be a dumb question, but why does the diagram show the -9V as a red wire?

    If I am building this to work only off battery, can I assume that the negative and positive text descriptions to be correct?

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    1. For two reasons - first, the ground is always 0V, not positive nor negative, but 0V. And second, most people build PNP circuits with a charge pump daughter board.

      If you are using battery only, then you would take red lead to ground and black to -9V.
      +m

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    2. Thanks, Miro! I decided to make some voltage inverters, instead of just using battery in SunFaces.

      One more question, if I wanted to add an LED, where would I connect it?

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  17. Following the BC108 version I finished this one today.
    I used a pair of bulky Ge russian transistors i got on ebay, which succesfully passed the DCA55 test :-)
    Both with very low leakage current, hfe 76 for Q1 and 120 for Q2
    Very nice sounding fuzz (I boxed it with a voltage inverter). Didn't have the opportunity to compare it with the Si version as I don't have the Si anymore :-(
    http://nsa33.casimages.com/img/2013/04/16/130416032646184092.jpg

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  18. Should the 1u cap be electrolytic?

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  19. A few days ago, I was lucky to get a nice NKT275 high gain set from elitetone on eBay at great price (it seems than on Halloween, people was most interested in having fun than in bidding :P). I built a mojo components board and waited for the trannies to come.

    They finally came today. Was interested in the High Gain version of the Sunface (+$75 option in analog.man Sunf Face). I received two little beasts:

    Q1: 109hfe, 0.10 mA leakage and Q2: 170hfe, 0,06 leakage.

    Put the trannies on the board, plugged the battery and tried to set a base bias of 4.5volts on Q2 collector with the sundial....... no way to get a voltage lowr than 8,9 volts with a 10k pot!

    I had tried the board with russian trannies and worked great, and the Sundial sweeped from 9.3 to 2,2 volts. Trannies q1 60, q2 85.

    First thing that came to yi mind: high leakage trannies. Had to get the germanium tester, and it showed very similar values of hfe and leakage to the one I had reveived......... so didn't know what to think.

    Luckily I remembered that very high hfe trannies may need a bigger trim / resistor / pot bias, so I soldered a 50k one.... and it biased at 4.5volts with 21k resistance.

    Plugged the effect to the amp an guitar, and OMFG, I've never have listened a sound like the one that was coming up fro my amp. I'm an atheist but this effect is just DIVINE. Tweaking the bias, finally came to a point where the sound is just PERFECT (it reads 4,85 in my dmm).

    Dom't know if it sounds like this for the brand, the model, the combo, the hfe..... but i can tell that this is my best fuzz face with no possible doubt.

    I strongly recommend that you get a high gain set of NKT275, I swear that is just incredible. I'm going to try to get another set, and would not mind to pay twice (13, 2 euros shippin' inlcuded) what I paid to get another pedal like this.

    Absolutely recommended. I've been in love with GT308 fuzz faces from a long time, but this set is another story, really.

    BR

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    1. Yes I got 4 x NKT275s a couple of years ago and only paid about £6 for them all and have had great results with those. I'veonly ever tested them out with socketed pedals though, I refuse to cut the leads or install them permanently. I think in the back of my mind I've been waiting for the perfect project to use them in. My 4 are pretty much perfect for 2 Fuzz Faces, the hfe measurements were 122, 103, 82 and 71 with between 0.11 and 0.17mA leakage. I'll have to try to source some higher gain ones and see what I think.

      Actually I was just looking at my list and I also bought 3 x NKT211's and 18 x NKT223's at a similar time. The 211's are lower gain but the 223's go from 60 up to
      around 170 hfe. I haven't even tried them yet so I'll have to have a play sometime

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  20. Can someone help me with a layout that includes a negative charge pump\converter? and maybe a few different part numbers for the pump? I sure i have some, just don't know much about IC's and how to identify them. Thanks

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    1. Just build this on a separate mini daughterboard. It will still easily fit in a 1590B size box. You can use an ICL7660S, MAX1044 or LT1044, the first can be bought very cheaply and in large quantities from eBay if you don't have any.

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  21. Thanks Much, most excellent help and site

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  22. the pedal sounds wonderful! I love it.

    I made with two B324, sounds great.

    the only problem I see is that the Fuzz potentiometer regulates only in the LAST QUARTER of the potentiometer, any ideas? how can I improve that?

    Photo: https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/q77/s720x720/1472043_10152055110932236_1869333462_n.jpg

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  23. If I only have a Electro 1u, which way would the negative go? Much help from my Euro brothers. And if i wanted to use a spst switch to change10n values like mentioned before, how would i patch that to the board? Is it that easy? Just patch it in where the 10n was? Any diagram would help?

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    1. With negative power supply (-9V), the negative side of the cap goes to Q1 Base and positive lead to the trimmer.
      +m

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    2. Im doing this one positive power, without an inverter. Does that change this?

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    3. And by doing this as a positive power. Does that change the wiring to the power jack? Does the power go where the ground was and vice versa?

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    4. So you have NPN transistors. Then reverse the 22µ and the input cap too (minus to trimmer - plus to Q1 base). Ground is a ground is a ground. Don't move it anywhere.
      +m

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  24. JESUS CHRIST!! I'm building an ultimate fuzz face and I've got the same transistors as JaviCAP. I wasn't quite pleased with the results until I remembered to measure to Q2 base voltage. Well I got the same problem, the sweep just wasn't enough for the high gain trannies. Put a 20k pot in there and biased to 4.5V. I had also previously cut some bass / tighten the low end by switching the input cap to 560n and the fuzzpot electrolytic for a 10u. Just OH MY GOD what happened! Incredibly aggressive take no prisoners nintendo madness blasting through the speaker. Best Fuzz Face I've tried, period! Now mind you I've also got the BMP tonestack /w LPB-1 after the fuzz and the boost trimmer is on full. So this is a standalone dirt pedal now. Doesn't need a broken up amp after it. I also threw a tone bypass switch in there to make it act like a regular fuzz face. Both modes - just amazing.. Highly recommended. Just try it out!

    Oh and I also threw a prescription electronics clean octave blend before it. They work together amazingly well. I'm so exited and inspired by this stupid thing I already wrote some riffs based solely on this particular sound.

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  25. I'm puting this together and am having an odd issue. When engaged I get a VERY low signal output and it is basically clean, also the fuzz pot doesn't effect the signal but the trim pot and volume work(ish). I had built two of the boards for this so in the debugging process I replaced the first board with the other, changed the input jack (thought I may have a partial short to ground) and no luck. This is my first positive ground build so despite the super low parts count, it's a bit of a headache. I'm using the positive ground wiring from diystompboxes, so I assume its good. The footswitch is the only thing I haven't changed though. When I hit it with an audio probe I get full signal through the last resistor and cap, but even at full signal it isn't fuzzy at all. The signal from the trannies are as clean as could be. Anyway, any help?

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    1. What are the transistors and do you know what their gain is?

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  26. I picked up a pair of nkt275's and asx12d's, and off the top of my head I don't remember (I'm away from home) but both pairs seemed to be withing acceptable limits. I have also changed the switch out and used a slightly different wiring layout as a last resort (just in case I had wired it in an silly way). I have literally used this layout on two different boards, swapped out input jacks and switches. All with the same result. Whatever it is that I have done, there is really only the output jack and these trannies left. I have a very cheap DMM, but it does have a transistor hfe function so these seem to read as they should. Is there any fairly common tranny I could pop in to see if I get anything different? I've got several dozen different trannies around. I am so baffled as to why this has such a consistent and odd problem. Thanks mark! I've built dozens of your layouts and its awesome, not sure why this little 10 component build is kicking my ass!! Thanks!!

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  27. I'm gonna try a couple other trannies just to see if that's the issue. I rewired my battery and am now getting signal at full volume but it is still uneffected. Quite embarrassing. The volume pot works as it should but the others do not (the trim pot does effect the signal). I can't figure out what is going on here. I've posted in a few other large forums but because this is an analogman "creation", and it's socially taboo to discuss and debug these on most of these sites. Thanks guys.

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    1. What voltages are you getting between all transistor pins and ground?

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    2. The first one (bottom right in the layout) is; c = 6.05. B = 5.84. E = 0. The second one (top left in the layout) is; e = 0.30. C = 6.23. B = 6.08. Do these seem to be in line with what is acceptable? Thanks mark!

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    3. I got a pair of nkt275's and a pair of asx12d's from the same seller on ebay and I thought I may have gotten swindeled so I put a pair of bc160's in just to see if I got an effected output signal but no dice. I'm so confused and frustrated but I'm 100% sure it's a rediculously simple fix, AND all my doing! I'm sooo anxious to hear this bad boy in action!

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    4. How can I post a picture on here?

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    5. Ok, it appears that my request for pic posting procedure (pardon the alliteration) has killed my plea for help! Do the transistor pin readings seem in line with what I should expect?

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    6. Sorry I missed your post about the pics. No the voltages don't look right to me, well the emitters do but nothing else. Your base and collector voltages are too high so something is amiss.

      To post pics I usually link to my photobucket account but if you don't have anything like that then just upload to http://tinypic.com/ and post the links here.

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    7. I recommend putting this on a breadboard since it is so simple and tweak away until you get what you want. I have used this layout for a tone bender mk 1.5 with great results as well.

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    8. Oh also today,
      I was playing on my friends white dot nkt275 sunface, and to me, I can almost swear that the fuzz pot is a reverse taper pot - 1kC because compared to my clone, his fuzz pot has a nice spread to it on the taper compared to what I have and it has lots of fuzz just set half way -

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    9. Hi Leo, I had exactly the same impression. And I've tried the reverse pot. Helped a little but not that much, till the moment I changed both transistors. I was using the "FF holly recomended hFE 90/130" White dots have around 40/60. There it started to sound right on most possitions. I guess (and not only me) that's where the sunface white dot "magic" is. Now I have Q1 43 / Q2 64. Not exactly that fuzz sound by it's own you hear on records, but some dark overdriveish. Crank the amp, or put it in a front of a bright Marshall amp sim pedal (I have Xotic BB and Himmestrutz Fetto+) Maaan, thats the sound for me! Could not be happier. ;-)

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  28. Would MP20As be any good as replacements for the NKT275s?

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    1. Yes people have reported good results with the MP20's

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    2. I think you can use any pnp Ge transistor here without any difficulty, they should bias fine. I like MP20's, both MP20a and MP20b (higher gain). They're well rounded, and not too dark sounding. Definitely my go to Russian Ge transistors.

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  29. I was reading that hfe and hFE are two different things and that hfe would not matter in a guitar circuit.

    I am new so I dont know

    I do have a question, what is Beta? and forward volatage?

    I have 8 nkt275 and wouls like to know more about them,

    thanks!

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  30. Juist built this, great layout as always. My "fake NKT275" and AC128 sets sound greatttt in here once they're properly biased (used a 25K pot for the sundial for a wide range)

    Analogman has some really great marketing going having people believe that everything but some vintage magic NKT275 sounds good in a Fuzz Face. He openly said AC128's can only sound like crap but I'm hearing the magic :D

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    1. The fake NKT275 also sound really good

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  31. I built it sometime ago, sounds very good! Nice layout too!
    http://www.coda-effects.com/2015/02/analogman-sunface-build.html

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  32. This a probably a really dumb question so I'll apologize, but this is my first positive ground effect. I don't want to use a power adapter at all, I'm happy to run this off just a 9v battery. To make this a positive ground effect do i simply need to just swap the battery snap wires, i.e. red/positive to the ground and black to the -9V on the vero? (i've tried this and can't get a sound, which is why I wanted to double check). Thanks and sorry for being a young noob.

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  33. no need to apologize. if you're using a battery snap, the the red + of the battersnap goes to where it say +vground on the board, and the black - of the batterysnap goes to the red -9V on the board.

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  34. Thanks Zach, really appreciate the quick help. I've read a lot about positive grounds and the + of the battery is at a higher potential than the - side of the battery etc, but that essentially 'ground' is more a POV than anything else. I think sometimes you just need a straight 'yes or no' answer, so thank you.

    Presumably I can wire the red of the batterysnap to the sleeve on the output jack right, as long as at some point that part of the circuit it makes it back to the +v on the board.

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  35. I really dont know what is the real function of the Sundial pot, because when I put at the maximum and minimum there is no sound variation.

    Someone could give me some advice?

    Thank you

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    1. When we are using a fuzz like that it is necessary to adjust the Q1 collector voltage in 4.5V. In this case, that is the function of the Sundial. My question now is, why dont we adjust the Bias with a trimpot and reduce one pot ??

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    2. If you remove the Sundial potentiometer, you have a fuzz face (essentially)!

      The idea of the Sundial/Bias pot is to give you a variation of sounds, for that dying battery sound up to full bodied/properly biased sounds.

      It sounds like your sundial pot isn't functioning correctly.

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    3. I though that could be a pot problem, but when I measure the voltage at collector, the Sundial pot goes from 10V up to 2V.

      Indeed the best sound is at 4.5v

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    4. I made a mistake, the real values are -3.68V up to -8.00V

      In this range could I heard some different sound?

      Now I am with 20K lin Sundial pot

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  36. Hello all!
    Can anyone confirm the way in which a 1uf tantalum would go? It's all I have and want to build it today without any caps blowing up in my face. I'm not really sure cause of the reversed polarity. If someone can school me that would be awesome too...
    Thnx!

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  37. Just built this with the negative voltage inverter and 10k sun potentiometer and it sounds great. I made a 2 minute video, it's nothing special but it will give you an idea how it sounds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oLNDozJoCw

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  38. what can I use in place of a NKT275?

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    1. Any PNP Germanium transistors.

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